mnealtx 0 #26 February 18, 2009 QuoteGetting medical should be a thing that comes with living and even paying taxes. How much are you willing to pay for it? 50% of your paycheck? 85%? QuoteOh and yeah. Universal Healthcare works!!!!! Everyone I know from France and Canada and the one person from GB loves it. It's the media, and these rich (health insurance bribed and bought) politicians and people who say they're looking out for us that are against UHC and we believe everything we hear in this country so we go with it. Mindless drones are we! Drink some more of that kool-aid, bub...but read my post above, first.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prodiver913 0 #27 February 18, 2009 i am not paying shit for it. We should not be paying for medical treatment. And if we did pay and if every working citizen in this country contributed, say $25, of each paycheck, holy shit. We would make billions every two weeks. Times that by 26 and we would have way more than enough to pay for medical for the entire country. Also make the Dr.s and hospitals stop charging stupid prices for half-assed treatments and assessments. It's just that people are greedy and the ones making the decisions like that are good to go, and don't give a shit about the average citizen. Like I said , we waste hundreds of billions every year on stupid, unaccounted for shit. I know plenty of places that money could go: medical and dental, education, transportation, dropzones. The one bad thing about universal health care, like canada, is that people are going to hospitals/clinics for shit like the sniffles because it's free. It should be for legit things. Or fuck it, legalize pot, tax it and export if we can and then we'll have more than enough. I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hwt 0 #28 February 18, 2009 Or fuck it, legalize pot, tax it and export if we can and then we'll have more than enough. ________________________________________________ I second that motion. Prohibition doesn't work. We spend more money trying to control people's choices then uhc. Think of all the revenue that could be made if we legalized prostitution and pot...Blue Skies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #29 February 18, 2009 Do you mean are people entitled to health care, or do mean are people entitled to FREE health care?Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #30 February 18, 2009 Do you mean are people entitled to health care, or do mean are people entitled to FREE health care?Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #31 February 18, 2009 I don't know. Since I'm not a doctor that can volunteer my personal energy to give free health care to another - then it's not my business to force those that can to provide something for free. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #32 February 18, 2009 The line between entitlement and right, if it exists, tends to blur this question. A right is something you inherently have unless it is taken from you. Medical care, like food, may simply be absent. If medical care is a right then doctors do not have the right to go home if there are people waiting, and there are always people waiting. If an entitlement is something different then it must be an obligation of the government to provide. I think expecting the government to provide any service as an entitlement is crazy. Are we entitled to police services, or are we entitled to police services within the constraints of the budget? If it is the former then the courts can order the state to increase the budget if certain areas can demonstrate that police services are not present in significant quantities to render a crime rate comparable to the country at large. Likewise if healthcare is an entitlement then the courts can and will order the governments to provide. This is always a dangerous situation. The United States has government supplied health care today. The question should not be weather people are entitled to it or not; it should be whether society will be improved by increasing the scope of it. The question is not so different than the ones being asked in Canada. We ask weather dental care should be covered for children, whether alternative medicine should be covered and how it should be rationed (coverage, not availability). You ask weather it should be more widely available. Looking at the discussion here it is sad because people line up on their red or blue side of the field and construct their arguments from there. Yes Mike there are people that die waiting for treatment in Canada. There was one in British Columbia three years ago that I remember. I am sure there have been more. It happens in the states too, it just isn't news. The truth is I know more people who have died in Afghanistan, I know more people who have died skydiving, I know more people who have died in plane crashes, car crashes, various other ways of dieing, than I do who have died (0) or suffered serious health consequences due to health care rationing in Canada. TK you didn't tell us how long your mother waited for her new knees, I know I waited longer for my non-critical surgery than I would have if I had the money or private insurance to go to the States for it. The truth is health care costs as a function of our ability to pay are spiraling out of control. The private insurer system is failing an increasing number of people, the public insurer system is threatening our governments' ability to provide other needed services. It looks like the Americans are going to move towards a larger public component. I think those on the right would serve their own interests to try to shape the changes rather than rail against them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #33 February 18, 2009 QuoteI don't know. Since I'm not a doctor that can volunteer my personal energy to give free health care to another - then it's not my business to force those that can to provide something for free. I don't think anyone expects doctors to provide free health care. Having said that, providing tax funded universal basic and emergency healthcare should be a priority for the USA. Our current system is far too inefficient. It's absurd (IMO) that the easiest, and often the only way for some people to access healthcare is via the emergency room, when it would be less costly to get the necessary care at a non-emergency clinic. Certainly there are those who abuse the system. That's true of all systems, not just healthcare, and not just by the poor (e.g. Enron, WorldCom, Moody's, mortgage brokers). However, it is not in the nation's best interest to proverbially spend a dollar ensuring a dime isn't stolen, an inefficient practice that is all too common in this country. As a consumer, I like to get the most bang for my buck. As a taxpayer, I fail to see much bang for the buck when (effectively) free emergency care for non-emergency (or conditions that began as non-emergency) is more readily accessible than free preventative care. If taxpayers are going to foot the bill, they deserve a more cost effective system than the current one.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #34 February 18, 2009 QuoteQuoteNONE of those articles you quoted talk or talked about or referenced in ANY WAY, people dying while waiting for health care, which was the premise of your original post. No, but it outlines the problem. Interesting way you have of confessing that you were wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #35 February 18, 2009 QuoteQuoteUniversal healthcare is one of the options universally accepted by most of the free world. But the best care is here in the US. You just have to pay for it. You have PROOF of that statement? Our life expectancy is nowhere near the top, and our infant mortality rate sucks. So while some people are receiving excellent care, there seem to be millions who are not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #36 February 18, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteNONE of those articles you quoted talk or talked about or referenced in ANY WAY, people dying while waiting for health care, which was the premise of your original post. No, but it outlines the problem. Interesting way you have of confessing that you were wrong. Wrong? Hardly, as shown in the rest of my post that you so conveniently ignored. Now go play while the grownups talk.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,394 #37 February 18, 2009 >Prenatal vitamins are not prescription only. They are at every walmart, grocery >store, and corner pharmacy. They cost approx $15 for 240tabs. AND... women >SHOULD be taking it PRIOR to getting pregnant to fully decrease risk of neural >tube defects. I agree 100%. And it might be worthwhile spending the five minutes it takes to tell a pregnant woman that who comes by an ER, even if she may not end up paying for the visit. >A better one would be offering free vaccinations.... Another good example. >Maybe people just have to understand that LIFE is expensive. LIFE has risks. >In life, you're not always ENTITLED to an easy answer. You're entitled to life.... >but not necessarily at the expense of others. I agree there. But you have to reduce it to the actual decision you will make. If you are OK letting a twelve year old girl die because you don't have evidence that she can pay, then a 100% capitalist system will work pretty well. If you have a policy of taking care of anyone whose live is in danger, no matter what their ability to pay, you are going to (effectively) have a somewhat socialist system. >And the next question would be determining what is socially acceptable care >for "society"? 1) Basic emergency care. Trauma, life threatening disease. 2) Emergency care for threats to a community. TB treatment, for example. 3) Mitigations that make 1) or 2) cheaper. (Vaccinations, prenatal care.) >Basic emergency care? Motor vehicle accident? MVA where he/she wasn't >wearing a seatbelt? Skydiving with a miscalculated swoop? Anybody filming a >Jackass video? Doesn't really matter. No one I have ever met who works in an ER uses the circumstances of an accident to determine the level of care given in emergent cases. Now, is someone who makes his money doing jackass stunts, and who doesn't have insurance, grossly irresponsible? Definitely. And if he wants a free rotator cuff repair, well, too bad. But as a society, we won't deny him care if he comes into the ER with a broken neck and spinal cord damage. And that, in my opinion, is a good thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prodiver913 0 #38 February 18, 2009 FYI- pregnant women should also avoid green tea at all costs. It's a folate inhibitor and folic acid is required for the reproduction and maintenance of new cells. Spinach is loaded with it. Anyway. By drinking green tea you could end up with a baby with neuro tube syndrome. On the subject of free medical. Just dont pay your bill. My buddy has about $20,000 worth of medical bills that and he pays them $1 month. Thats one way to do it. Keep doing that forever and when you die you die. It's done with. I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #39 February 18, 2009 QuoteQuoteGetting medical should be a thing that comes with living and even paying taxes. How much are you willing to pay for it? 50% of your paycheck? 85%? QuoteOh and yeah. Universal Healthcare works!!!!! Everyone I know from France and Canada and the one person from GB loves it. It's the media, and these rich (health insurance bribed and bought) politicians and people who say they're looking out for us that are against UHC and we believe everything we hear in this country so we go with it. Mindless drones are we! Drink some more of that kool-aid, bub...but read my post above, first. I really do have to ask Mike.. who is your health care provider??? Are you sure you are actually going to get what you have paid for if you need to use it??? I used to be against the government getting involved in it..but at this point they need to step in and provide healthcare for all at a reasonable cost. The reason I changed is I have been paying for many many years..andwhen I finally had a need to get a returnon that investment..they fucking fight me tooth and nail to not pay.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 125 #40 February 18, 2009 QuoteBut the best care is here in the US. You just have to pay for it. no argument from me - what good is it if the average person cannot afford it? What kind of society are we if we do not care enough to take care of our own people? Why are we spending hundreds of billions in other countries while people go bankrupt in our own country just because they fell down the stairs? etc etc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 125 #41 February 18, 2009 Quote In Reply To You will spend less money in taxes than you do in health insurance, and you will get 'good' healthcare. can't wrap my mind around this, seriously. Wrap your mind around this then. In Canada I made some $60-65K a year and I paid $12-$18K a year in income tax, depending on the year and the deductions (retirement savings etc). I paid NOTHING for health care. and I got 'good' health care. Last year, here in the USA, I made $60-$65K and I paid some $16K in income tax. I also spent $525/month for health insurance, an additional $6300 for health insurance. I also spent $3400 in doctors fees, deductibles and such. So that makes $26K total expenditure. And I wait just as long to get service as I did in Canada. I am paying through the nose for 'good' healthcare. So I am living proof that the universal healthcare is a better value. Wrap around that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prodiver913 0 #42 February 18, 2009 +1 dude I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #43 February 18, 2009 QuoteSo I am living proof that the universal healthcare is a better value. So you're saying an "n" of one is "proof"? Doesn't meet giudelines for appropriate research. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 125 #44 February 19, 2009 I never said any such thing - and if you are saying that I am the only one with 'that opinion', then you are just as wrong as I am..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #45 February 19, 2009 QuoteThey are entitled to emergency health care. No one should be turned away when they are dangerously sick or injured because of their inability to pay. i agree with this. although i gave the choices of yes or no, i realize that there is a huge gray area in between. thank you for stepping into the gray. i like that we have this safety net in place for emergent care. i, as most people, have spent some time during my adult life without insurance and i don't mind kicking in a little for this. there are other exceptions that i don't mind paying for either. that said, i feel that the vast majority of people are on their own. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #46 February 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteUnfortunately a lot of folks use "emergency health care" as their only health care resource. Seems like the only option if you don't have affordable health insurance... Unfortunate indeed. i agree that its unfortunate that health insurance is so expensive, but rather than ask the government to foot the bill for us, we should be asking them to find out why it costs so much and what can be done to reduce the cost. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #47 February 19, 2009 Quote Doctors and hospitals charge an outrageous fee because they have things like insurance and what not, and health insurance have no choice to raise their premiums because of this. you appairently don't know how things work. doctors and hospitals may have their price lists, but this means nothing to the insurace companies. insurance companies decide how much they are going to pay for particular services, and that is all the doctor gets. furthermore, the insurance companies have people who aren't doctors that decide whether or not you needed that particular service and if they decide you didn't, they don't pay. if you believe the probelm lies with the docs and hospitals, you are very mis-informed. QuoteMy wife went to the E.R with gastroenteritis, a normal winter bug, and had some fluids, a shot, and an hour or two in the E.R room and the bill was $6000!!!!!! Are you fucking kidding me. Thankfully we have Tricare Prime through the military. you need to look at the bill. you should see what the bill is, and how much tricare actually paid those two numbers won't even be close. most of the time tricare pays so little that its barely a break-even proposition for them. QuoteIf the U.S gov. didn't waste money and lose money we all wish the government didn't waste so much money, but its going to happen. it will happen if the government pays for our healthcare too. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #48 February 19, 2009 QuoteAdvances in medical technology make the world a better place. Also, people should care about each other’s health. Fortunately, important people throughout the public sector, including teachers, police officers, firefighters, and others, pursue their careers oftentimes more for altruistic than financial reasons. Why is this not true in the medical profession? it certainly is true in the medical profession. by far the vast majority of doctors i know, have known, and have ever heard of truly care about their patients and do what they do because they want to help people. they are healers to the core. that doesn't mean they don't deserve compensation. do you realize what it takes to become a doctor? once someone finally graduates from residency they are in their 30's and bogged down with huge student loans, or they can go in the military and work for years for 1/2 to 1/3 of the money their civilian counterparts are making. they have very arduous schedules and have to sacrifice huge amounts of time with their families. do you know how many holidays and childrens' birthdays doctors spend in the hospital? altruism only gets you so far. the same people with the dedication to become doctors are fully capable of putting their efforts in another direction that would make them more money if they were only in it for finacial reasons. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #49 February 19, 2009 Quotei am not paying shit for it. We should not be paying for medical treatment. then who the fuck is going to pay for it? someone has to, hospitals don't build and run themselves. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #50 February 19, 2009 QuoteDo you mean are people entitled to health care, or do mean are people entitled to FREE health care? i mean free. if you pay for it, of course you're entitled to it, its yours, you bought it. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
