livendive 8 #51 January 23, 2009 Quotein order to win a war you must be willing to go at least 1 step further than who you are fighting. anything less is a waste of time and effort. showing weakness (like pulling out of the war, releasing prisoners, or even having a large percentage of the population show outrage for the war itself) only instills confidence and resolve in the ones you are fighting and makes the war harder to fight and win and that ultimately costs more lives, time and resourses. Thanks for your unsubstantiated opinion. One of mine is that in order to win a war, you must be better than your opponent, and at all costs avoid becoming him. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NotBond 0 #52 January 23, 2009 Quote Thanks for your unsubstantiated opinion. One of mine is that in order to win a war, you must be better than your opponent, and at all costs avoid becoming him. What if, in order to be better than your opponent, you have to become like him? Or, more precisely, do some of the things your opponent does, in order to win?Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #53 January 23, 2009 Quote The problem is, a large share of the population has no idea what we face. To those in law enforcement, military, or civilian preparedness, it's pretty clear - we face an enemy who's stated goal is our destruction as a nation, and death our our citizens if we do not "convert" to their way of life. Period. Well that’s a convenient belief. Convenient because you don’t have to deal with years of history, and questionable actions we have takin that just might warrant hate. To solve an issue you at first need to understand the cause. Seriously I know most seem to want to make this a movie of guys in white hats, and black hats but it is not that simple. Life is not a movie. Quote And if we go down that road, they have won. Terrorist terrorize that’s their goal. To use fear to get what they want. Simple as that. So some believe as you stated your self that they want to destroy our way of life our freedom (which is bullshit in MO but just to make the point)? Your solution is we can do that to our selves? Because of fear? Oh nooo my baby might get hurt welcome to the real world man, A lot of people have been hurt, killed, tortured and a lot more for a lot less and some times by our hands for unjust reasons. You will never be safe specially when your focus is on paranoia. I rathere be free then safe. If you want to be truly safe live in a bubble and hope it doesn’t brake.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #54 January 23, 2009 QuoteQuote Thanks for your unsubstantiated opinion. One of mine is that in order to win a war, you must be better than your opponent, and at all costs avoid becoming him. What if, in order to be better than your opponent, you have to become like him? Or, more precisely, do some of the things your opponent does, in order to win? If those things are what you're fighting over, doing them would mean you've lost, or are at least undeserving of the win. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #55 January 23, 2009 QuoteWhat if, in order to be better than your opponent, you have to become like him? Or, more precisely, do some of the things your opponent does, in order to win? Not if your opponent’s goal is for you to change who you are and what you stand for.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #56 January 23, 2009 QuoteWhat if, in order to be better than your opponent, you have to become like him? Or, more precisely, do some of the things your opponent does, in order to win? Well we did not need to create massive slave labor and death camps to beat the Nazi's... although we did throw a bunch of Japs into some pretty harsh places out of stupidity. I guess you would have been good with that back then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #57 January 23, 2009 QuotePeople who are not willing to do what is necessary to win wars will eventually be oppressed by people who are. Concur. And as has been demonstrated over-and-over again, the most effective methods to defeat insurgents and terrorists is not through traditional military action and not through torture, e.g., the failure of the French in Algeria. Less than 7% of terrorist groups active in the latter half of the 20th Century and first 7 years of this century were defeated by military action. Do you want to use the most effective methods, or are there other reasons you want to pursue ineffective methods? And while history is not predictive, we ignore(d) it at our own peril. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #58 January 23, 2009 QuotePeople who are not willing to do what is necessary to win wars will eventually be oppressed by people who are. We ARE willing to do what is necessary to win the war against the terrorists!!! For example, Obama wants to step up the battle & increase our troop presence in Afghanistan to fight Al Quaeda. (Remember them? The ones who ACTUALLY attacked us in 2001???) WE ARE NOT willing to do what is UNNECESSARY (and COUNTERPRODUCTIVE) to win the war!!! Recruiting for the enemy HELPS the enemy! Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #59 January 23, 2009 So the argument again comes to defining harsh treatment. Is torture limited to ropes and broomsticks or does it extend to lound music and sleep deprivation? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #60 January 23, 2009 In extracting information from terrorists, we should use the MOST EFFECTIVE means possible. To find out what the MOST EFFECTIVE means are, we should listen to those with the most expertise in interrogation. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #61 January 23, 2009 QuoteQuote Thanks for your unsubstantiated opinion. One of mine is that in order to win a war, you must be better than your opponent, and at all costs avoid becoming him. What if, in order to be better than your opponent, you have to become like him? Or, more precisely, do some of the things your opponent does, in order to win? well then i guess the left doesn't mind speaking german, russian, or what ever the fuck they are speaking in the middle east. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #62 January 23, 2009 QuoteTo find out what the MOST EFFECTIVE means are, we should listen to those with the most expertise in interrogation. Good idea... rather than using the third rate THUGS in third world countries to do the dirty work. Many of those people use brutal methods because they can get away with it.. and most of them also ENJOY it. Usiing SADISTS to get information is nuts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NotBond 0 #63 January 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhat if, in order to be better than your opponent, you have to become like him? Or, more precisely, do some of the things your opponent does, in order to win? Not if your opponent’s goal is for you to change who you are and what you stand for. Not if your opponent’s goal is for you to change who you are and what you stand for. A good point. My question was somewhat retorical, because it's not black and white but varying shades of grey. We've taken some steps in this country that have removed some freedoms. Are we safer for it. Perhaps. Are we more like the enemy because we've removed some freedoms in order to be safe? Yes, in some ways. Kind of a vicious circle. Where does it stop? Who says "Ok, enough freedoms have been removed to guarantee safety"? Or, who says we need to remove more in order to preserve our way of life? Perfect example: I need to comply with the TSA screening in order to enjoy unrestricted commercial air travel. But, in order to enjoy unrestricted air travel, I have to restrict myself at the gate (search, those stupid 3oz containers, etc). Vicious circle. I don't have a pat answer, there is none. Your trade of freedoms for safety may not be mine and vice versa.Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NotBond 0 #63 January 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhat if, in order to be better than your opponent, you have to become like him? Or, more precisely, do some of the things your opponent does, in order to win? Not if your opponent’s goal is for you to change who you are and what you stand for. Not if your opponent’s goal is for you to change who you are and what you stand for. A good point. My question was somewhat retorical, because it's not black and white but varying shades of grey. We've taken some steps in this country that have removed some freedoms. Are we safer for it. Perhaps. Are we more like the enemy because we've removed some freedoms in order to be safe? Yes, in some ways. Kind of a vicious circle. Where does it stop? Who says "Ok, enough freedoms have been removed to guarantee safety"? Or, who says we need to remove more in order to preserve our way of life? Perfect example: I need to comply with the TSA screening in order to enjoy unrestricted commercial air travel. But, in order to enjoy unrestricted air travel, I have to restrict myself at the gate (search, those stupid 3oz containers, etc). Vicious circle. I don't have a pat answer, there is none. Your trade of freedoms for safety may not be mine and vice versa.Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #64 January 23, 2009 Quote So the argument again comes to defining harsh treatment. Is torture limited to ropes and broomsticks or does it extend to lound music and sleep deprivation? No, the argument comes down to traditional military operations versus counterinsurgency/counter-terrorism operations. Sorry, I have to board a plane or I would write more. (And you know that's not a cop-out from me. ) Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #65 January 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote Thanks for your unsubstantiated opinion. One of mine is that in order to win a war, you must be better than your opponent, and at all costs avoid becoming him. What if, in order to be better than your opponent, you have to become like him? Or, more precisely, do some of the things your opponent does, in order to win? well then i guess the left doesn't mind speaking german, russian, or what ever the fuck they are speaking in the middle east. And they don't want to speak 'mukan ... the language of the people that invaded them. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #66 January 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhat if, in order to be better than your opponent, you have to become like him? Or, more precisely, do some of the things your opponent does, in order to win? Well we did not need to create massive slave labor and death camps to beat the Nazi's... although we did throw a bunch of Japs into some pretty harsh places out of stupidity. I guess you would have been good with that back then. We won WWII because we did what it took, period. We didn't let anyone or any thing stand in our way and we used anything that we could, including the bomb. was dropping the bombs on 2 major cities in japan was not the human thing to do but it did save poss hundreds of thousands of american lives. but i guess that would have been ok with the liberal left to not use something that actually saved our guys. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #67 January 23, 2009 Quote +10 I voted more than once, just like a democrat. -20. I purged the votes just like a Republican Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #68 January 23, 2009 That's still debatable and not a Fact. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #69 January 23, 2009 Quote Quote +10 I voted more than once, just like a democrat. -20. I purged the votes just like a Republican You very tricky...I see now that we Republican's will need to rewrite the district maps to our favor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #70 January 23, 2009 Quote If those things are what you're fighting over, doing them would mean you've lost, or are at least undeserving of the win. Blues, Dave We lost already. Every time you go shoeless through the TSA at an airport is a reminder that we lost our values. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #71 January 23, 2009 QuoteYou very tricky...I see now that we Republican's will need to rewrite the district maps to our favor. You guys already did that from 1994 to 2006 There was also that special software in the Dibold machines that counted most Democratic votes as GOP votes...... unless there were not enough to ensure a majority.. then it just added a few thousand GOP votes "randomly" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #72 January 23, 2009 Yes indeedy - spot on!! (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #73 January 23, 2009 QuoteThat's still debatable and not a Fact. what's debatable? did we loose WWII and they have lied to me all these years? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #74 January 23, 2009 QuoteQuotein order to win a war you must be willing to go at least 1 step further than who you are fighting. anything less is a waste of time and effort. showing weakness (like pulling out of the war, releasing prisoners, or even having a large percentage of the population show outrage for the war itself) only instills confidence and resolve in the ones you are fighting and makes the war harder to fight and win and that ultimately costs more lives, time and resourses. Thanks for your unsubstantiated opinion. One of mine is that in order to win a war, you must be better than your opponent, and at all costs avoid becoming him. Blues, Dave to not become him you must first defeat him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #75 January 23, 2009 It appears from the dangling chad that you intended to vote the other way. We'll change your vote for you. No worries... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
