LaRusic 0 #26 January 13, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhite phosphorus (WP) is considered an incendiary and obscurant. It is commonly used for smoke generation. Historically the US has stockpiled (& used) WP with 81mm mortars and M825 “Felt-Edge” 155mm projectiles. It comes in hand grenade form too. You can't throw the thing far enough to get away from the blast radius, so you better have something to duck behind. They're great for melting down a cannon barrel that you want to render useless. we use em as trip flares....really lights up the area and the tree its attaches to usually burns down hahaThe Altitude above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel not in the plane are totally worthless Dudeist Skydiver # 10 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #27 January 13, 2009 QuoteAlthough I have no time for the "Israel has no right to defend itself because the Palestinian children are in the way" argument, I do think this is an error on Israel's part both morally and from a PR standpoint. As you said earlier WP is indicated for strictly military targets (what munitions aren't). They have the power, and the the obligation, to achieve their goals with less collateral damage. They should pursue those options. What would those other options be? They can attack with troops, and once again civilians are put in harm's way, and in addition, they're likely to have some of their own troops killed. So an artillery response saves the lives of Israeli soldiers. It also is a much more immediate response, which is likely to get the rocket-shooters before they can run away and hide. Israel also has an obligation to protect their soldiers and civilians, in the best way possible. If the rocket-shooters don't want civilians put in jeopardy, then they shouldn't launch their deadly missiles from civilian areas. You can see the silhouette of many buildings in the area in that photo. Where is your condemnation for Hamas for irresponsibly putting their innocent populace in danger? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #28 January 13, 2009 Collateral damage is not just measured in deaths; suffering also matters. Using incendiaries like WP increase non-combatant suffering. QuoteIsrael also has an obligation to protect their soldiers and civilians, in the best way possible. This is where the rules of war come in. Israel does not have the right to minimize military losses without regard to collateral damage on the other side. Virtually all international protocol restrictions on ordinance reflect this. Johnson could have saved many American servicemen lives if he had used nukes on Hanoi, but he didn't because it was not acceptable. Obviously this scenario in Gaza is nowhere near the one I just referenced but the principles are the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #29 January 13, 2009 I listened to inspirational speaker once who was horribly burned by White Phosphorus. He was on a Navy gun boat in Vietnam. Their mission was to deliver some Navy Seals far upriver. They were ambushed by the enemy. He was in the process of throwing a W.P. grenade when a bullet hit it. It exploded either in his hand or very near it. Everyone thought he was dead, but he was aware of everything going on. I heard they loaded his corpse on a stretcher and his body burned right through the nylon material. He survived and went home to marry his high school sweat-heart. She married him even though he was missing an arm and looked like a monster. What an inspirational story! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #30 January 13, 2009 Most likely ICM.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #31 January 13, 2009 QuoteCollateral damage is not just measured in deaths; suffering also matters. Using incendiaries like WP increase non-combatant suffering. QuoteIsrael also has an obligation to protect their soldiers and civilians, in the best way possible. This is where the rules of war come in. Israel does not have the right to minimize military losses without regard to collateral damage on the other side. Virtually all international protocol restrictions on ordinance reflect this. Johnson could have saved many American servicemen lives if he had used nukes on Hanoi, but he didn't because it was not acceptable. Obviously this scenario in Gaza is nowhere near the one I just referenced but the principles are the same. And Gaza doesn't have the right to endanger their civilians by using their backyards as missile launch sites.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #32 January 13, 2009 QuoteQuoteCollateral damage is not just measured in deaths; suffering also matters. Using incendiaries like WP increase non-combatant suffering. QuoteIsrael also has an obligation to protect their soldiers and civilians, in the best way possible. This is where the rules of war come in. Israel does not have the right to minimize military losses without regard to collateral damage on the other side. Virtually all international protocol restrictions on ordinance reflect this. Johnson could have saved many American servicemen lives if he had used nukes on Hanoi, but he didn't because it was not acceptable. Obviously this scenario in Gaza is nowhere near the one I just referenced but the principles are the same. And Gaza doesn't have the right to endanger their civilians by using their backyards as missile launch sites. You are correct Gaza Hamas does not have the right to do so. Their actions however do nothing to weaken my point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #33 January 13, 2009 QuoteJohnson could have saved many American servicemen lives if he had used nukes on Hanoi, but he didn't because it was not acceptable. Of course not, we were not the only nation armed with nukes then."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #34 January 13, 2009 Do you really believe that is the only reason he declined? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #35 January 13, 2009 QuoteDo you really believe that is the only reason he declined? No. I know he would have elicited the wrath (opinions) of the world, and probably that of his own citizens as well. I made the original post in reference to the US being the only atomic superpower when we dropped the bombs on Japan. There was no way anybody else could or would have wanted to respond to that militarily."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #36 January 13, 2009 MSN article with picture QuoteAs the Israeli army stormed to the edges of Gaza City and the Palestinian death toll topped 500, the tell-tale shells could be seen spreading tentacles of thick white smoke to cover the troops' advance. "These explosions are fantastic looking, and produce a great deal of smoke that blinds the enemy so that our forces can move in," said one Israeli security expert. Theoretically, one can claim that it is to obscure troop movements. In practical use, it hinders opposing troop movements and artillery/rocket positions, because anyone caught outdoors may be burned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #37 January 13, 2009 QuoteDo you really believe that is the only reason he declined? There are many instances where US forces didn't use very much restraint. I don't think Israeli generals have said or done anything along the lines of "in order to save the village we had to destroy it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RSG 0 #38 January 13, 2009 I hate to use these photos but this is what it looks like on kids !!!!!! Quote There are many instances where US forces didn't use very much restraint. I don't think Israeli generals have said or done anything along the lines of "in order to save the village we had to destroy it." killing wont make any progress!!!!!_________________________________________ R S G = Ready Set Goooooooooo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #39 January 13, 2009 Expect a warning, maybe a banning from the mods for dead people pics... Believe me, I know... Take those off."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RSG 0 #40 January 13, 2009 Ok The thing is : It kills people in a real bad way, they suffer more why is this used? : I think that the inhuman army of Israel wants to make more fear in Gaza but Palestinians don't give a $@#% Killing wont stop anything , it will make things worse_________________________________________ R S G = Ready Set Goooooooooo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #41 January 13, 2009 QuoteQuoteSee this type of picture alot. Look like a particularly nasty indiscriminate type of ordinance. Makes a mockery of Israel's claims to be trying to avoid civillian casualties. Israel claim during combat is to not avoid civillian casualties, but instead to limit civillian casualties. An example might be, Hamas firing Rockets from a school yard into Israel. Israel responds by directing a missile instead of a 500 lb bomb onto the target thus killing the Hamas firing team and hopfully limiting civillian casualties that maybe in the school. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fossg 0 #42 January 13, 2009 My guess is dpicm and it was probably part of what is called a"cordinated night illumniation mission"(wherein the "lum" rounds are fired first and the HE-DP is fired onto the target that is lit up by the "lum" Its a real fun mission to fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaRusic 0 #43 January 13, 2009 i didnt think the ilumination rounds break into all the small little bits like shown on the pictures? all the ilum rounds i have seen have been very high in the air and look much like a para flare.The Altitude above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel not in the plane are totally worthless Dudeist Skydiver # 10 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbwing 0 #44 January 13, 2009 Quotewe use em as trip flares....really lights up the area and the tree its attaches to usually burns down haha Or they go off in your face when you try and remove the safety... I've ruined more than 1 parka on winter warfare trying to set those little bastards up!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaRusic 0 #45 January 13, 2009 QuoteQuotewe use em as trip flares....really lights up the area and the tree its attaches to usually burns down haha Or they go off in your face when you try and remove the safety... I've ruined more than 1 parka on winter warfare trying to set those little bastards up!! haha doesnt surprise me paul, this is why im happy to be a tech, just sit back and watch the infantry...usually a good showThe Altitude above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel not in the plane are totally worthless Dudeist Skydiver # 10 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #46 January 13, 2009 Quotei didnt think the ilumination rounds break into all the small little bits like shown on the pictures? all the ilum rounds i have seen have been very high in the air and look much like a para flare. Click on the MSN link in post 36. Israel states that they are white phosphurus rounds that are used to create smoke. There isn't any question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaRusic 0 #47 January 13, 2009 QuoteQuotei didnt think the ilumination rounds break into all the small little bits like shown on the pictures? all the ilum rounds i have seen have been very high in the air and look much like a para flare. Click on the MSN link in post 36. Israel states that they are white phosphurus rounds that are used to create smoke. There isn't any question. oh that i completely agree on, what i was getting at is that its not an illumination round, its an incendiary round. illumination rounds look like this http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/71334047.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193CC300C081D9F47002A4A9D15DFAA7002A539F12027242477A55A1E4F32AD3138 and im sorry but the israelies are not using these for smoke cover, they are using it to fuck people up, you can use smoke grenades and whatnot for smoke coverThe Altitude above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel not in the plane are totally worthless Dudeist Skydiver # 10 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #48 January 13, 2009 Quoteand im sorry but the israelies are not using these for smoke cover, they are using it to fuck people up, you can use smoke grenades and whatnot for smoke cover Bullshit - if you're wanting to 'fuck people up' there's much better choices than WP.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fossg 0 #49 January 13, 2009 The ilumination rounds are above the dpicm rounds and are not captured by the picture. There is an "ambient" glow as it were indicating the presence of the rounds Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #50 January 13, 2009 Quoteim sorry but the israelies are not using these for smoke cover, they are using it to fuck people up, you can use smoke grenades and whatnot for smoke cover I would say that it fits into two elements of strategy. - If there is enough smoke, then forward observers may not be able to direct fire on advancing troops. Same issue for snipers. So, it is a valid tactic. - One of the Israeli problems has been rocket attacks. Those are launched from out in the open. If hot phosphorus is raining down, you deny the enemy the necessary open field. I doubt the Israelis will be admitting that. Civilians need to apply some common sense. A war is going on, keep their kids indoors. It isn't fair, but it is happening that way. Given the venue, it seems a little Biblical Ezekiel 38:22 QuoteGOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) I will punish Gog with plagues and death. I will send rainstorms, large hailstones, fire, and burning sulfur on his troops and on the many armies with him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
