New Years Resolutions And Genuine Change...How Does It Happen?

[prodiver913 0]

in the end it's still will. They think they're turning their life over to something supernatural and that makes them feel better and helps the process.

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

[micro 0]

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in the end it's still will. They think they're turning their life over to something supernatural and that makes them feel better and helps the process.

i'm not using the 12 step programs as some sort of proof for the existance of God. Belief in God and, for that matter, and whether you want to accept it or not, is ultimately only a question of faith. As you (or someone else) said, you can't prove God exists. However, you can't prove God doesn't either. In the matter of the 12 steppers, their surrender is their only act of will. They do not use their willpower to overcome their addiction. Some of the addicts I've known are some of the most willful, successful, driven people I've ever met and "will" was not enough to overcome the addiction. You may not, in the end, concede that a Higher Power intervened in the lives of these addicts. These addicts however, and many of their family members, need no further proof.

A further point to address, one that you made in a previous post and that is regurgitated endlessly by those who have no belief in a God: that those who believe are just mindless drones. Such drivel tells me that you have met very few people who believe in God and/or you yourself have demonstrated being a mindless drone by buying into the widespread prejudice that those that believe in God are stupid or... (insert your own particular insulting adjective that makes believe you are superior to those who believe in God, especially those dim-witted Christians).

Some of the sharpest minds in the world believe in God. Some of the sharpest minds in the history of the world not only believed in a God, as Einstein did, whom you quote in your sig line, but were also Christians. Perhaps a good primer for you would be Dinesh D'Souza's recent work (no dim bulb there either, that one), What's so Great About Christianity?

I find the following juxtaposition particularly interesting, one that I do take part in. Many Christians condemn atheits to hell for their non-belief. Many atheists condemn believers as being stupid for their belief. Hmm. Quite a bit of pride and arrogance in both sides, if you asked me.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[prodiver913 0]

i agree on the ignorance on both sides totally. But I definitely do not hate or dislike people who believe in God. Faith is a beautiful thing. My only wish is for the majority to educate themselves on the full history of humanity and all the history of faiths from the earliest form of polytheistic animism to Christianity we have today. That's all. Then using the best information, make a decision that is best suited for that person. Not take something that they have "always known" and run with it. I did it for 18 years but I have bettered myself with education and have made my decision from it.

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

[jakee 1,426]

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in the end it's still will. They think they're turning their life over to something supernatural and that makes them feel better and helps the process.

i'm not using the 12 step programs as some sort of proof for the existance of God. Belief in God and, for that matter, and whether you want to accept it or not, is ultimately only a question of faith. As you (or someone else) said, you can't prove God exists. However, you can't prove God doesn't either. In the matter of the 12 steppers, their surrender is their only act of will. They do not use their willpower to overcome their addiction. Some of the addicts I've known are some of the most willful, successful, driven people I've ever met and "will" was not enough to overcome the addiction. You may not, in the end, concede that a Higher Power intervened in the lives of these addicts. These addicts however, and many of their family members, need no further proof.

They're still using willpower to overcome their addictions, they're just getting a little help from the support structure of the program, and the placebo effect.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[micro 0]

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i agree on the ignorance on both sides totally. But I definitely do not hate or dislike people who believe in God. Faith is a beautiful thing. My only wish is for the majority to educate themselves on the full history of humanity and all the history of faiths from the earliest form of polytheistic animism to Christianity we have today. That's all. Then using the best information, make a decision that is best suited for that person. Not take something that they have "always known" and run with it. I did it for 18 years but I have bettered myself with education and have made my decision from it.

great post, and one i totally agree with.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[micro 0]

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in the end it's still will. They think they're turning their life over to something supernatural and that makes them feel better and helps the process.

i'm not using the 12 step programs as some sort of proof for the existance of God. Belief in God and, for that matter, and whether you want to accept it or not, is ultimately only a question of faith. As you (or someone else) said, you can't prove God exists. However, you can't prove God doesn't either. In the matter of the 12 steppers, their surrender is their only act of will. They do not use their willpower to overcome their addiction. Some of the addicts I've known are some of the most willful, successful, driven people I've ever met and "will" was not enough to overcome the addiction. You may not, in the end, concede that a Higher Power intervened in the lives of these addicts. These addicts however, and many of their family members, need no further proof.

They're still using willpower to overcome their addictions, they're just getting a little help from the support structure of the program, and the placebo effect.

could be, but it's a hell of a placebo effect then.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[nerdgirl 0]

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People want to believe that God exists. They need him/her/it. If we were more self-reliant from the beginning we would have never had a form of worship.

Concur to some extent in your statements not sure that I agree with the conclusions you draw. (I observe/experience a similar phenomenon with former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich, who’s also a very smart man.

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People confuse what we think and hear in our minds with our own superior intellect. We are biological. we evolved. There is more proof for that than any deity or deities. I believe that when you die, that's it. Done. And that's also what modern humans believed for almost 150,000 years. The idea of an after life as only been around for maybe 2,500 years. I am gonna take the 150,000 year side.

Humans do have an amazing ability to find patterns, even when those patterns aren’t significant, e.g., the Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich or Jesus in the dirty water stains on freeway underpass concrete. Yes, humans have an amazing ability to be creative and imaginative from the art of Handel’s Messiah and Angkor Wat to exquisitely complicated & convoluted rationalization.

Nonetheless, from purely factual/archeological/historical basis: on what do you base your assertion of the 2,500 year number? That’s only 500 BCE (before current era). Written accounts from Biblical sources (old testament, of course) predate 500 BCE. Other written historical accounts (back to the Sumerians, Mayans, and ancient Chinese -- all the independent inventors of written language) wrote about the concept of an afterlife. While one can debate the intended significance of the Venus of Willendorf (~23,000 BCE), two and a half millennia is too recent.

A number of years ago in a discussion over beer, a former colleague (a PhD chemist and non-practicing Jew) speculated that if humans were intelligent reptiles instead of intelligent mammals we would not have an omnipotent deity “complex.” He more asserted than speculated but I try to be diplomatic. It’s semi-scientific but nonetheless very provocative cognitive musing (imo) to wonder what if. What if we were intelligent reptiles who could function independently without dependence on another all-providing being for the first year or so of our lives? How would our species imagine the face of God then? Would that even be a meaningful question to ask if our physiology was such?

There are many debates about ‘nature’ versus ‘nurture’ and the depictions of proponents of each respective group sometimes borders on cartoonish. (Of course, we never observe that with any other dichotomies, eh? ) Such a nature-driven hypothesis, as I described above, is one that most of the proponents of a purely nature (or genetic) based explanation of traits find very difficult.

Curious: have you ever read (& if yes, what do you think of) Guns, Germs, and Steel?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[prodiver913 0]

i am actually on the second chapter of Guns, Germs, and Steel. Great book. I NetFlixed the doc. from NG. I meant about 2.500BC. What really interests me us what happened before CE. Way, way before. so sometimes I forget most recent 2,000. The most evidence we have that suggests an afterlife is from the Egyptians. Around 2500BC.

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

[jakee 1,426]

Uh, so what evidence do you have that peoples living before that time did not have a concept of life after death?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[windcatcher 0]

***Personally, I'd rather live this life as if it's all I've got and find out later there's even more,than enjoy this life less than I could in anticipation of a "more" that doesn't exist. I don't find this depressing at all. ***

What exactly are you implying? That us Christians don't enjoy life as much because we are concerned with eternity? Sure we don't engage in typical activities that other people think are "fun" such as sleeping with dozens of other people, getting drunk, smoking pot, being greedy, etc. I find life to be a lot more bearable knowing this nasty world we live in is NOT all there is; I enjoy life more knowing that there is a God who loves me more than I can possibly imagine and that nothing can separate from His love.

What kind of hope do you have, that life will ever get better than it is now?

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[jakee 1,426]

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That us Christians don't enjoy life as much because we are concerned with eternity? Sure we don't engage in typical activities that other people think are "fun" such as sleeping with dozens of other people, getting drunk, smoking pot, being greedy, etc.

Hah! Don't kid yourself.

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What exactly are you implying? That us Christians don't enjoy life as much because we are concerned with eternity?I find life to be a lot more bearable knowing this nasty world we live in is NOT all there is;

See that is exactly what is so depressing about your worldview! I don't need the promise of something more to make this life bearable, I don't view it as something to tolerate until the better stuff rolls around, I just love it regardless.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[prodiver913 0]

the earliest KNOWN evidence of an afterlife is that of the ancient Egyptians. There civilization dates to about 3,150 BC, so about 5,150 years ago (I was a little off). Our species finally evolved into what we are today (with little variation here and there) approx. 200,000 years ago. So that's about 197,000 years of not having an afterlife belief (that we know of, but so far we have no evidence). Read any books on ancient Egyptian religion or neolithic to present anthropological journals/studies. Before the ancient Egyptians animism was the primary belief. When you die, your energy becomes part of the earth and you live in, for example, the deer. And when you eat the, for example again, the deer, it becomes part of you.

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

[Coreece 190]

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the Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich

omg...lmao.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[deibido 0]

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One has to want change in order to enact change....



See simple ain't it?

I would say that wanting is not enough.

One has to need change, actually require it.


Inertia is a bitch.

"User assumes all risk"

[akarunway 1]

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Okay folks here's a little bit of a psychological question for ya! Every year millions of people make resolutions to do/not do something different than what they've been doing. Lots of people try to go to the gym, quit smoking, try to be less selfish,etc. And millions of people quit their goals after a month in and nothing gets accomplished.

So my question to you is, how does genuine change happen? Not just meeting goals such as quitting smoking, but changes such as becoming more selfless, caring, giving,etc. How does one go about changing his/her temperament or outlook, assuming it can be changed? Where does change stem from?

Personally I think it can be hard to change without God's help, but I also believe people need to quit feeling sorry for themselves and just start living differently. Whatcha got?

People don't change. They are set in their ways. Selfish, greedy pigs. And there is no god. Get over it.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[bluepill 0]

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So my question to you is, how does genuine change happen? Not just meeting goals such as quitting smoking, but changes such as becoming more selfless, caring, giving,etc. How does one go about changing his/her temperament or outlook, assuming it can be changed? Where does change stem from?

IMO:

Everything and everybody is always in a constant state of change.
Be it a change in your:

beliefs;
values;
relationships;
tastes;
job;
image;
health;
morals;
financial status;
emotions;
etc etc ...

But it is the combined balance of all changes that give you the sense of your being at any particular time.

The difficult part to understand is just what level of change it is that you think you need or allow. Most people never really know but search for an answer by making ‘resolutions’ or ‘goals’ to achieve or even just a commitment to ones self to live within their own values. Whether there succeed or fail is not that important. It’s the fact that they attempt, that is important. Because they are attempting to take control and responsibility of their lives and how the constant change impacts them.

We (can) have an influence on the direction, pace and enormity of the change. It’s whether or not we really want to though.

Motivation comes from 'feeling' the benefit of the change which is really hard to do if your not quite there yet.

Personally I use visualisation to 'feel' the benefits of major change.

I have done this many times before, although not always successful it always helps (me).

Examples:
1. When I raced motorbikes I used to get real shitty starts and have to work hard to get into the top ten. For any dirt bikers out there I was comparable to Mike Larocco (without his talent)
So on practice days during the week, I would (as I always did) practice my starts. But I started to visualise the start for a couple of minutes before each one. I would visualise everything from prepping my gate to exiting the first corner. And I visualised all the senses too, the smells, the sounds, the feelings.... everything.
Back at the races, my starts improved and I got better results. The year I started doing that I won the most improved rider category in my club.

2. At the moment I am getting myself fitter and losing weight. I am using visualisation again, but not on what I eat or how I exercise, but more on the feelings and sensations of skydiving and jumping my 190. It motivates me to keep going.

Change is always happening, whether you try to influence the pace and direction of it or not, you may as well enjoy the journey.

BP

[Andy9o8 2]

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A number of years ago in a discussion over beer, a former colleague (a PhD chemist and non-practicing Jew) speculated that if humans were intelligent reptiles instead of intelligent mammals we would not have an omnipotent deity “complex.”

Don't be so sure.

http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/2168478/RaptorJesus2-main_Full.jpg

[nerdgirl 0]

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i am actually on the second chapter of Guns, Germs, and Steel. Great book.

Concur heartily. It really is an easy read too.

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The most evidence we have that suggests an afterlife is from the Egyptians. Around 2500BC.

“Most” …perhaps. How are you measuring “most”? If measured in comprsion to the Egyptian near-obsession with death among early literate societies by those who employed scribes - I agree.

In recorded history Sumerian concepts of afterlife pre-date Egyptian concepts. While there are fewer examples, it is there. It was also quite a different concept from that which predominates in 21st century western/Judeo-Christian-Muslim cultures. What most today think of as heaven was reserved for the Gods, Goddess, and kings (lugals). The underworld – which was not a direct parallel to the Judeo-Christian-Muslim hell – was where most humans were thought to go after death was a pretty grim, dusty place. The Sumerians, who invented written language in the western Asia/Africa/Europe, were rather fatalistic in their conception of an afterlife. Nonetheless, it was a recorded conception of afterlife that pre-dates the Egyptians in written records.

You are correct that in sheer quantity there is less written about afterlife by the Sumerians compared to the Egyptians. The largest number of cuneiform inscriptions are boring from a cultural-literature perspective: Adad has 100 sheep. Ziusudra bought them for 1000 bushels of wheat. The Sumerians recorded trade and commerce – they were more business-oriented.

Anatolian burial sites with burial goods date back to 7500 BCE (9,500 years ago) support concepts of an afterlife. Vulture shrines linked to excarnation have been found at Catal Hayuk.

Pre-Buddhist China (eastern) also developed a concept of the afterlife.

Before that one has to start looking at Venus of Willendorf, Lascaux cave drawings, etc.

What any of those conceptions mean for which, if any, is “correct,” is a whole different argument and evidence set. For me, the more interesting question …. & some may be shaking their heads in disbelief that any of this could be conceived of as interesting … is what influenced the Egyptians to have one conception (more like the Judeo-Christian-Muslim version than the Sumerian) of the afterlife versus the Sumerians versus the Bon theists of pre-Buddhist Tibet (excarnation through “sky burial”).

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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A number of years ago in a discussion over beer, a former colleague (a PhD chemist and non-practicing Jew) speculated that if humans were intelligent reptiles instead of intelligent mammals we would not have an omnipotent deity “complex.”

Don't be so sure.

http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/2168478/RaptorJesus2-main_Full.jpg

... & you do read beyond the first paragraph:
/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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the Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich

omg...lmao.

Just in case the pop culture example to which I was referring was unclear: 'Virgin Mary' toast fetches $28,000.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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Before the ancient Egyptians [maybe ... nerdgirl] animism was the primary belief. When you die, your energy becomes part of the earth and you live in, for example, the deer. And when you eat the, for example again, the deer, it becomes part of you.

Re-reading through the thread and your reply to [Jakee], I'm wondering if we're talking cross-purposes on conceptions of an afterlife and cognition of higher deities?

I would consider animist reincarnation beliefs to be a conception of an afterlife. It's not the predominant one from montheistic religions for sure. It is a conception of an afterlife tho, yes?

Animist groups also have cognition of higher or supernatural deities.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[tbrown 26]

Not discounting God's help, which can bring about radical changes in people's lives. But too many New Year's resolutions are too grand and have no plan to back them up.

Want to quit smoking ? That's outstanding, but it's also one of the toughest addictions to kick (I know people who have kicked cocaine and heroin, but can't quit smoking). That can probably use a doctor's help and needs planning beyind just tossing the cigs. Everything from diet and excercise, to avoiding alcohol at least for a while, to finding something new to keep the hands busy. A lot of angles need to be covered.

Becoming a better person, wow that's huge. Commendable too. But how ? Also needs a plan. Maybe starting with even just one concrete step. Sign up for the adult literacy program at the local library and start teaching one adult to read. As you free their mind, you expand your own horizons as well. Plus you make connections with other people who have doing this sort of thing longer and you get exposed to the other things they're also involved in.

If you start small with one thing you can really do, and can manage to fit into your life, it can grow and help to create more changes, until eventually looking back, it can be quite surprising what's been accomplished.

Now if I would just get off my duff and apply this to me.....

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !