Sockin' It to Hamas

[falxori 0]

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Again you twist my words the people who moved there from Europe, America and all over the world after 1948 are the invaders. According to you most of the Jews lived there before any of this so it shouldn’t much of a problem.

I didnt twist your words, you were very clear about it. the Jews who came to Israel before/after 1948 came back to their homes and have every right to be here.
and yes, I know you don't agree. tough luck.

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You have not answered my questions that I specifically posted twice why is that?

Do you think there was an injustice done to the Palestinian people after the creation of Israel in 1948?

That’s a simple question all I want is an answer. You can answer the two specific ones as well it would be good to know your view.

I did answer and I will answer again.
Yes there was an injustice done to the local arabs who fled their homes in 1948, much like there was an injustice when my family were kicked out of their home in Hebron in 1936. such are wars. you can't ignore the fact that they started the 1948 war. and again, let me remind you that those who stayed became Israeli citizens.

why are you so eaget to fix the injustice of 60 years ago but not the one of 2000 years ago? where do you draw the line? if we wait 1000 years more will the palestinians lose their "right" in your view? 50? 100? 2000 years?

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

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why are you so eaget to fix the injustice of 60 years ago but not the one of 2000 years ago? where do you draw the line? if we wait 1000 years more will the palestinians lose their "right" in your view? 50? 100? 2000 years?

Because it is in my lifetime and I feel I have a responsibility to speak out against injustices that are occurring. I was not here 2000 years ago and the standard for the world was different. The world was a much more violent place with out any international laws or even a standard for Humane rights.
We do not live in those times anymore and I find it impossible to justify Israelis actions.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[JohnRich 4]

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>The Gaza Strip on that satellite photo is as green as the rest of Israel.

And Las Vegas is as green as San Francisco. Is that because the land is lush and verdant, or because we have spent billions to dam the Colorado and re-route its water? If you could live in either place - but were guaranteed you would not get city water - where would you choose to live?

Perhaps all the wealthy Arab nations who sympathize with the Palestinians should build them some sewage plants, so they aren't dumping raw sewage into the dunes, contaminating their drinking water. That situation is not Israel's fault.

[Darius11 12]

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forum rules prevent my actual response to the ridiculous notion of telling Israelis they have to accept 'a few' deaths caused by 'a few' rockets coming from 'a few people that won't give up.'

There will always be people who want chaos on both sides if you react to them and them only then all you will have is chaos.

The one with more power also has more power for peace.

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Esp when 'the few' are the governing entity and funded by nice would be genocidists like your innocent Iran.

Innocent Iran is very inocent compared to well almost any country.
Iran has not invaded a single country in the past century. This is a fact that you refutted before but offered no proof to the contrary.

Also Iran was the first country to right a doctrine on humane rights, and our First king even set the Jews free.

So other then episodes of 24 and fox news where do you get genocide and Iran from?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[billvon 2,384]

>Perhaps all the wealthy Arab nations who sympathize with the
>Palestinians should build them some sewage plants . . .

Good idea! Let us know how your efforts to do that go.

>That situation is not Israel's fault.

I agree. That does not make the land anything other than desert.

[JohnRich 4]

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Gaza Strip: More than 80 percent sand/dunes, only very few agriculture.

Ah yes, a factoid without any attribution for verification. How convenient.

Re: Gaza Strip
Quote: "arable land: 29%"
Source (World Fact Book): http://www.bartleby.com/151/gz.html

How does that compare with Israel?
Quote: "arable land: 16%"
Source (World Fact Book): http://www.bartleby.com/151/is.html

Gee, it looks like the Gaza Strip is almost twice as rich in agricultural land, proportionately, as Israel.

And it looks like in all your worldly travels, you still haven't learned the actual facts.

And yet some of the Palestinian supporters here are calling the Gaza Strip a "shit hole"... But compared to Israel, it's actually just like I said: prime, green, water-front property.

[falxori 0]

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Because it is in my lifetime and I feel I have a responsibility to speak out against injustices that are occurring

were you alive in 1948?
i'm not saying you should ignore it, but why 1948 yes but 1939 no? and because you weren't alive in 70AD, it doesnt matter anymore?
sorry, I dont get your logic. I still think you pick the dates that serve your purpose.
and remember, i only pulled 70AD as a comeback to your "it all started in 1948" claim.

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The world was a much more violent place

i'm pretty sure the past 100 years weren't less violent than the 1st century.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

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i'm pretty sure the past 100 years weren't less violent than the 1st century.

I strongly disagree. I think just are show of outrage at atrocities is a huge improvement over it being considered the norm. Imagine sitting in your little village and it is common to be pillaged and the woman to be raped? No I truly think we live in less violent and more civil times.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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were you alive in 1948?
i'm not saying you should ignore it, but why 1948 yes but 1939 no? and because you weren't alive in 70AD, it doesnt matter anymore?
sorry, I dont get your logic. I still think you pick the dates that serve your purpose.
and remember, i only pulled 70AD as a comeback to your "it all started in 1948" claim.

Off course all of it matters but you were asking why I am not commenting on 2000 years ago. Well because I don’t think the bombing going on today are because of 2000 years ago. I think all of the violence between Israel and Palestine in this century has been the result of Israel becoming a nation in 1948. That’s why I bring that date up.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[falxori 0]

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I strongly disagree. I think just are show of outrage at atrocities is a huge improvement over it being considered the norm. Imagine sitting in your little village and it is common to be pillaged and the woman to be raped? No I truly think we live in less violent and more civil times.

I can think of several places that this is still the norm.
even if you are correct about today, looking back 60-100 years into the past, WWI and WWII pretty much take the lead. but we're going off topic.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

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I think all of the violence between Israel and Palestine in this century has been the result of Israel becoming a nation in 1948. That’s why I bring that date up.

and I have provided you with clear evidence that you are wrong.
the creation of israel followed a long dispute over this land when it was decided to divide the land to 2 states. what "started" the violence is not the creation of Israel its the refusal of the local arabs to accept the division plan.
1948 (like 1967) was an important date on the timeline but saying it all began there as if Israel was created out of thin air is simply false.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[christelsabine 1]

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....
But compared to Israel, it's actually just like I said: prime, green, water-front property.

? We did not compare to Israel. And "actually just like you said" is BS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_the_Gaza_Strip

The link shows "arable land: 24 %".

And that is prime, green waterfront property to you??

Man, your desert mother country must be very dry.

Let me repeat: Travel and make your own experiences, your own forming of opinion, live there and meet locals. You'll be surprised. No need to collect facts, just live there and you'll enjoy facts daily.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[kelpdiver 2]

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Do you think there was an injustice done to the Palestinian people after the creation of Israel in 1948?

World War II and the aftermath lead to a lot of decisions that weren't great for everyone. Virtually every change benefits some more than others. Stalin grabbed up a nice chunk of Poland, and that was after he divided it in half with the Germans.

The Jews in Europe that survived until 1945 preferred to go to what is now Israel, rather than resettle in the countries that tried to exterminate them. When you compare the current Jewish population in the world to the number that died, it doesn't seem like they got the better end of the deal.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Innocent Iran is very inocent compared to well almost any country.
Iran has not invaded a single country in the past century. This is a fact that you refutted before but offered no proof to the contrary.

Also Iran was the first country to right a doctrine on humane rights, and our First king even set the Jews free.

So other then episodes of 24 and fox news where do you get genocide and Iran from?

Your leader, of course. It couldn't be less clear.

And when you fund other groups (Hamas, Hezbollah, Contras) to do dirty work for you, you're still not innocent.

[billvon 2,384]

>And that is prime, green waterfront property to you?

Of course. It makes the Palestinians seem even more despicable, that they are not grateful for their prime, green waterfront property generously given them by the Israelis. Why, suddenly the deaths of innocents seems much more acceptable! Look what they did to that garden of Eden - turned it into a desert.

[livendive 8]

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Why, suddenly the deaths of innocents seems much more acceptable! Look what they did to that garden of Eden - turned it into a desert.

Didn't we bomb the garden of eden in 2003?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[falxori 0]

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Look what they did to that garden of Eden - turned it into a desert

while your sarcasm is acknowledged, just imagine what would have happened if they actually DID take the opportunity given to them when Israel pulled out of Gaza and built something instead?

I can promise you that the situation would have been much better for all sides.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[billvon 2,384]

> just imagine what would have happened if they actually DID take the
>opportunity given to them when Israel pulled out of Gaza and built
>something instead?

I don't think I would build anything really expensive in a country where the government has a regular habit of destroying those things. I suspect you wouldn't either.

[falxori 0]

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don't think I would build anything really expensive in a country where the government has a regular habit of destroying those things. I suspect you wouldn't either.

which government?
you really think that Israel attacks Gaza because it has nothing better to do?
Israel has pulled out of Gaza and clearly said it has no business there as long as no attacks are coming out of there.

no nation could allow thousands of rockets to be launched at civilian towns like that. Hamas didnt even try to keep it quiet. not even once.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[billvon 2,384]

>which government?

The Israeli government. Some examples would include the Gaza City wastewater treatment plant, the Khoury power plant, farms and olive groves.

>you really think that Israel attacks Gaza because it has nothing better to do?

Nope. It bombs them for retaliation against rocket attacks, assassinations and terrorist bombings. Which, of course, will lead the Palestinians to retaliate against the civilian casualties inflicted by the Israeli attacks. Which Israel will retaliate against again. No one is doing it because they have "nothing better to do" - they all have reasons they think are good.

>no nation could allow thousands of rockets to be launched at
>civilian towns like that.

Nor could any nation allow regular bombing of their infrastructure without retaliation.

[falxori 0]

indeed, the chicken and the egg.
while I can't say that Israel has never been the one to break the egg. in most cases it was Hamas who (unlike Israel) vowed never to stop until Israel is destroyed.

again, when Israel pulled out of Gaza, there was no reason to launch any attacks, right?
whenever Israel opened the border crossings, what reason was there to blow up the same crossings that provide Gaza with supplies?
trust me, if there is quiet from Gaza, there is quiet IN Gaza.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[billvon 2,384]

>in most cases it was Hamas who (unlike Israel) vowed never to
>stop until Israel is destroyed.

Israel says Gaza assault 'war to the bitter end'
Dec 29 03:41 PM US/Eastern
By IBRAHIM BARZAK and MATTI FRIEDMAN
Associated Press Writers

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - Israel obliterated symbols of Hamas power on the third day of what the defense minister described Monday as a "war to the bitter end," striking next to the Hamas premier's home, and devastating a security compound and a university building.

The three-day death toll rose to 364 on Monday, with some 1,400 reported wounded. The U.N. said at least 62 of the dead were civilians, and medics said eight children under the age of 17 were killed in two separate strikes overnight. Israel launched its campaign, the deadliest against Palestinians in decades, on Saturday in retaliation for rocket fire aimed at civilians in southern Israeli towns.
============================

Israel in 'all-out war against Hamas'

Reuters
Monday, 29 December 2008

Israeli air strikes flattened bastions of Hamas rule in the Gaza Strip today in the third day of an offensive that has killed more than 325 Palestinians in the deadliest violence in the territory in decades.

"We have an all-out war against Hamas and its kind," Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak said in parliament, using a term he has employed in the past to describe a long-term struggle against Israel's Islamist enemies.
==========================

>again, when Israel pulled out of Gaza, there was no reason to
>launch any attacks, right?

Well, other than retaliation for the destruction of Deir al-Balah as they left. And the Israeli artillery barrage into Gaza a few months after the withdrawal. And the bombings the next summer that killed hundreds. Some people might find those things reasons. I think they're wrong, but their logic is every bit as sound as the Israelis who think that if they use enough force, Palestinians will stop resisting them.

[Skyrad 0]

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Congratulations to Israel for socking it to Hamas in Gaza. After raining rockets on civilian Israeli towns, the Hamas fuckers are now whining about the inhumanity of Israel showing they mean business.

Although I am generally opposed to the use of nuclear weapons, I think dropping one on Gaza would serve three useful purposes.

First, it would put an end to the Hamas bullshit there once and for all.

Second, it would establish beyond any doubt that Israel does indeed have the bomb, and finally that they're willing to use it.

If that sounds extreme to anyone out there, maybe Hamas should get a new hobby and stop it with the rocketing bullshit. Fuck 'em. Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. They want war, that's what war's all about. At least no Israelis are committing chickenshit suicide bombings in discos.

Grow up

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[falxori 0]

I'm not sure why you've added these quotes, Israel is in fact attacking Hamas and its symbols of power. no arguement there.

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Some people might find those things reasons. I think they're wrong, but their logic is every bit as sound as the Israelis who think that if they use enough force, Palestinians will stop resisting them.

when one is looking for reasons, one will find them.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

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Innocent people are dying (On both sides). That is sad no matter who they call God.

And thats the bottom line. Children are dying and arseholes on the other side of the world are cheering. Pathetic.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca