Suing WalMart?

[TKE_440 0]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/12/02/walmart.trampling.suit/index.html

People go to huge crowds, force their way in, fight for bargains, step on people, kill people, injure eachother, and then sue WalMart for negligence.

I guess being responsible for your own actions is a thing of the past, huh?

So, if I pack myself a malfunction and slam the ground, I should be able to sue whoever made the 'chute?

[billvon 2,380]

>So, if I pack myself a malfunction and slam the ground, I should be able to sue
>whoever made the 'chute?

No - but you might be able to sue the DZ if they charged you extra unless you jumped a Nova.

The case here is that Wal-Mart provided an incentive (limited numbers of items discounted on a first-come first-served basis) for people to beat others into the store. The result was not unlike shouting "fire!" in a crowded theater. Sure, you are not responsible for the actions of the crowd. But you had to reasonably think that a stampede might ensue.

I don't think that means they are legally liable for foolish behavior on the part of the crowd, which was the most immediate cause of the death. But I do hope they change the pricing policies that provide a strong incentive to trample people.

[millertime24 8]

This makes me fucking sick!!! I absolutely HATE how much more materialistic people get during the "silly season". If I want to get a gift for someone its going to be something they NEED not a 52"LCD tv that I have to buy TODAY to get for some sale price that it will wind up costing the same in a year anyway. I would much rather prefere just getting to spend time with the ones I care about rather than trying to impress them with what material items I can get them.

Muff #5048

[TKE_440 0]

Understood. WalMart could have done this better, done that better. That is nothing more than the power of hindsight. So many different scenarios could have taken place, and chances are they will in the future, which we will be in the same position now. Why didn't someone (WalMart) do better in prevention? That is an absurd question. The only victim in this incident is the gentlemen who got killed. What he did wrong was to go to work!
The fact still remains the door got broke down, people rushed over one another, and continued doing it, at least ONE HUNDRED times. That is ridiculous. How can anyone make preperations or foresee this incident.
It was stated from initial articles that cops were not able to render first aid because of being jostled by the crowd, and when WalMart did the right and sensible thing by closing the doors, they were only met with more futile customers.
To me, the crowd is at fault, not WalMart!

[kelpdiver 2]

this happens just about every year, so I suspect the legal groundwork has been done. And that those who participate in said 5am rushes know they're in a contact sport.

Seems like the dead guy's family has more of a case, though.

[marks2065 0]

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This makes me fucking sick!!! I absolutely HATE how much more materialistic people get during the "silly season". If I want to get a gift for someone its going to be something they NEED not a 52"LCD tv that I have to buy TODAY to get for some sale price that it will wind up costing the same in a year anyway. I would much rather prefere just getting to spend time with the ones I care about rather than trying to impress them with what material items I can get them.

o come on now, stampeding a defenseless person and saving $20 is the american way. then not holding the people that stomped on this person liable priceless. remember, it is not the one responsible that pays but the one that is closest to the situation with money.

[kallend 1,621]

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Understood. WalMart could have done this better, done that better. That is nothing more than the power of hindsight. So many different scenarios could have taken place, and chances are they will in the future, which we will be in the same position now. Why didn't someone (WalMart) do better in prevention? That is an absurd question. The only victim in this incident is the gentlemen who got killed. What he did wrong was to go to work!
The fact still remains the door got broke down, people rushed over one another, and continued doing it, at least ONE HUNDRED times. That is ridiculous. How can anyone make preperations or foresee this incident.
It was stated from initial articles that cops were not able to render first aid because of being jostled by the crowd, and when WalMart did the right and sensible thing by closing the doors, they were only met with more futile customers.
To me, the crowd is at fault, not WalMart!

If this was the very first time something like this occurred you would have a point. BUT similar things have happened previously at "sales". It was predictable, and preventable.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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>So, if I pack myself a malfunction and slam the ground, I should be able to sue
>whoever made the 'chute?

No - but you might be able to sue the DZ if they charged you extra unless you jumped a Nova.

The case here is that Wal-Mart provided an incentive (limited numbers of items discounted on a first-come first-served basis) for people to beat others into the store. The result was not unlike shouting "fire!" in a crowded theater. Sure, you are not responsible for the actions of the crowd. But you had to reasonably think that a stampede might ensue.

I don't think that means they are legally liable for foolish behavior on the part of the crowd, which was the most immediate cause of the death. But I do hope they change the pricing policies that provide a strong incentive to trample people.

so are you going to blame the pregnant woman that got hurt for being there, too? Call her a bad mother?

It's 100% the fault of the people that stampeded. Absolutely anything else is interesting, but not pertinent.

What does this say about what we've all become?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,380]

>so are you going to blame the pregnant woman that got hurt for being there,
>too? Call her a bad mother?

Since you claim that it's 100% the fault of the people that stampeded, and she was part of that crowd - sounds like you have answered your own question.

[kelpdiver 2]

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so are you going to blame the pregnant woman that got hurt for being there, too? Call her a bad mother?

I will. Anyone else want to join me?

[kbordson 8]

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To me, the crowd is at fault, not WalMart!

+1

Could Walmart have made it safer? Hell yes. Black Friday is dangerous. Don't open. Don't sell stuff. Don't listen to the whining from the consumers.... but then they wouldn't make much money. And then we would have to organize a bailout of for Walmart.... (ok... maybe not that extreme)

Or the people could have realized that others were hurt (and/or DEAD) and been respectful. But... don't let that interfere with getting that video game for $10 less.

[rehmwa 2]

you're so clever

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,380]

>Or the people could have realized that others were hurt (and/or DEAD) and been respectful.

I agree that the crowd was to blame. However, if you, and several friends of yours, were part of that crowd, and you saw it happen right in front of you, you would be one of those "disrespectful" people. You may well have tried to stop when you realized that people were hurt - but in a crowd like that it's impossible, and often the only safe way out is ahead.

This is the problem with mob behavior. Each individual's action is rational - the guy in the back is pressing forward just a tiny bit to ensure a slightly better outcome for himself, the people in the front are acting to protect themselves. This characteristic is why even well-intentioned people die during mobs in stadiums and theaters.

In this case, once you realize that someone is hurt and/or dead, it is far too late to change your course of action. The time to prevent that - and the time to remove yourself from the situation - is long before the doors open.

[Andy9o8 0]

Gee, I don't suppose one could reasonably apportion responsibility between customers acting like animals and Wal Mart for failing to take adequately diligent measures to prevent something that was predictable under the circumstances? No, of course not, that would be too sensible. This is Speaker's Corner, so it must be all or nothing.


At trial, the jury will need to decide the answer to a number of key questions of fact. Among them:
- Did Wal Mart create or contribute to the creation of a dangerous situation?
- Should Wal Mart have recognized, in advance, that an imminently dangerous situation existed or was very likely to exist?
- Did Wal Mart have the ability to reasonably prevent the dangerous situation from occuring before it occured?
If the jury decides that the answers to those questions are "No", then Wal Mart will not be held liable.

[pirana 0]

Quote

At trial, the jury will need to decide the answer to a number of key questions of fact. Among them:
- Did Wal Mart create or contribute to the creation of a dangerous situation?
- Should Wal Mart have recognized, in advance, that an imminently dangerous situation existed or was very likely to exist?
- Did Wal Mart have the ability to reasonably prevent the dangerous situation from occuring before it occured?
If the jury decides that the answers to those questions are "No", then Wal Mart will not be held liable.

I think it will depend on how they promoted it. I took part in one of Dayton's warehouse sales once (dating myself) and it was openly promoted as a free for all. They advertised a set small number of items (VHS players, that normally sold for about $300 each - really dating myself) at a price of $50. I got there about an hour before they opened and was in about the 4th or 5th row of the crowd.

When the person with the keys showed up there was a good amount of joking in the crowd about the person turning the key being in danger.

I timed a couple thrown elbows and dipped shoulders perfectly with the door swinging open and was already up to about 10th place just a couple steps in. A forearm shiver or two, and a couple hip checks later and it was me and a 3 others leading the sprint down the main aisle.

We reached the display well ahead of the pack. There were a couple dozen players laid out on 2 or 3 banquet tables. A quick grab of whatever looked cool was all we had time for because the pack was closing in. We just kind of instinctively stepped back and WHAM! You should have seen the melee when the main pack (probably about 100 people) hit those tables for the remaining 20 or so players.

It was like a rugby scrum; maybe more like a ruck & mall. People crawling and clawing over the top of each other, and every couple seconds someone would emerge from the pile with a machine. Absolute mayhem.

Long story short (I always promise but rarely deliver), Dayton's realized the danger of these things after a couple minor injuries and stopped doing them long before they became Fields.

IMO, if they advertised this as a bull rush for a small number of bargain priced goodies; they share the guilt.

One last thought. What was the person opening the door thinking? Would you turn the key in front of a large group of obese mouth-breathing bargain hunters, all strongly incented to save half of last week's pay; not to mention the prestige of being the first on the block to own the latest mass-produced electronic opiate?

Not me. At that point you turn to the boss and say "Here, you open the door."

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[DJL 232]

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This makes me fucking sick!!! I absolutely HATE how much more materialistic people get during the "silly season". If I want to get a gift for someone its going to be something they NEED not a 52"LCD tv that I have to buy TODAY to get for some sale price that it will wind up costing the same in a year anyway. I would much rather prefere just getting to spend time with the ones I care about rather than trying to impress them with what material items I can get them.

That's nice, now go tell that to people who shop at Walmart. Blank stares?

Also, what a lot of these people are doing is buying the bargain and then resellling it through another store.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[jimmytavino 16]

i just read the article from the link.....

sounds like an ambulance chasing attorney with clients who wanna take advantage of the situation...

become part of what you KNOW could become a mob...... and you take your chances..

not much different than a RAVE which goes bad, and people get HURT.... and then the WILLING participants start looking for some way to exploit the situation...for $$$$$$$... (some holiday spirit )..
shame on the father,,,, for setting a terrible example for the son...

imho

jmy

[lawrocket 3]

I have a problem with Walmart here, folks. Wasn't the guy who got killed an employee? Aren't there probably hundreds of incidents of unruly crowds outside of stores on Black Friday every year?

It makes something like this "foreseeable." Okay, it's foreseeable that a crowd can form anywhere for any reason. But this is not a random gathering. WalMart INVITED them to all get together and compete with each other. I'll bet that the local police warned them, too.

Did Walmart take precautions? What precautions were they? If Walmart did lots of things to prevent it and it still happened, then Walmart should not be liable.

If Walmart fiddled then screw them. You can't light a campfire and later on say, "it got away from me. Not my fault."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[DJL 232]

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I have a problem with Walmart here, folks. Wasn't the guy who got killed an employee? Aren't there probably hundreds of incidents of unruly crowds outside of stores on Black Friday every year?

It makes something like this "foreseeable." Okay, it's foreseeable that a crowd can form anywhere for any reason. But this is not a random gathering. WalMart INVITED them to all get together and compete with each other. I'll bet that the local police warned them, too.

Did Walmart take precautions? What precautions were they? If Walmart did lots of things to prevent it and it still happened, then Walmart should not be liable.

If Walmart fiddled then screw them. You can't light a campfire and later on say, "it got away from me. Not my fault."

It's well known that these events are barely more controlled than the Running of the Bulls.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,380]

>Gee, I don't suppose one could reasonably apportion responsibility
>between customers acting like animals and Wal Mart for failing to take
>adequately diligent measures to prevent something that was predictable
>under the circumstances?

Best possible outcome -

Judge hears the complaint, says "so, Wal-Mart, you going to fix this problem?"

Wal-Mart says "Yep, we're not going to structure our sales to entice people to do this in the future."

Judge says "OK, case dismissed."

[pirana 0]

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It's well known that these events are barely more controlled than the Running of the Bulls.

I was going to mention that comparison in my story about participating in one of these; but figured I'd get flamed for exxageration. But that is what it was like. A mob outright sprinting thru the store (self included), and knocking over anything in their way.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[DJL 232]

Worth posting in any Wal-Mart thread:

http://walmartwatch.com/pages/wal_marts_negative_impact_on_local_communities/

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Lastchance 0]

Nobody was killed at our local Walmart on Fri but my sister in law witnessed 2 women get into an argument over a last item on sale and then the 2 husbands ended up in a fist fight defending their wives. All before 6:00 A.M. Tis the season.

I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands.

[millertime24 8]

Fuck the season. Just give me a bottle of Talisker 10yr, a warm fire, and good company to share a drink with and I'm happy.

Muff #5048

[marks2065 0]

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Fuck the season. Just give me a bottle of Talisker 10yr, a warm fire, and good company to share a drink with and I'm happy.

i've been called scrooge at christmas time because i hate what people turn into this time of the year, therefore i try to avoid christmas and it's problems. My christmas is spending time with my daughters over dinner with some laughs and smiles. the rest of christmas i do without. i avoid the stores and the people that can't enjoy what this time of year is all about. for me christmas is the time to enjoy the company of loved ones and share in the things that make life worth living. the over comercialization of christmas has turn a once great holiday into a time of sarrow, grief and agrivation for many.

remember, it is not what you buy but who you spend time with and share your life with that counts, to bad these people at walmart and other places have forgot that.