kallend 1,883 #1 November 16, 2008 AP: NEW YORK: Nordic countries again topped this year's scorecard measuring equality between women and men in 130 countries. The gap between men and women was widest in Yemen, with Chad, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Benin, Morocco, Egypt, Turkey, Ethiopia and Bahrain near the bottom of the list. The report released this week at a press conference by the Swiss-based World Economic Forum again found that no country closed the gap between men and women when it comes to economic participation and opportunity, educational attainment, political empowerment, and health and survival. The three highest ranked countries — Norway, Finland and Sweden — closed a little over 80 percent of their gender gaps while the lowest ranked country, Yemen, closed only a little over 46 percent. "Greater representation of women in senior leadership positions within governments and financial institutions is vital not only to find solutions to the current economic turmoil, but to stave off such crises in future," Klaus Schwab, founder and executive chairman of the World Economic Forum, said in a statement. The United States moved up four places to 27 this year, closing just over 71 percent of the gender gap, because of progress on income equality and political empowerment, driven by the increased participation of women in political decision-making positions, the report said. Switzerland advanced to 14th place based on large increases in the percentage of women in parliament and those in ministerial-level positions. France improved significantly, to 15th place, because of gains in both economic participation and political empowerment, it said. China, the world's most populous country, moved up 17 places to 57, driven by narrowing gender gaps in educational attainment, economic participation and political participation, the report said. Germany (11), Britain (13) and Spain (17) slipped in the rankings but remained in the top 20, the report said. In the bottom half of the rankings, Tunisia (103), Jordan (104) and the United Arab Emirates (105) made overall gains by narrowing gaps in literacy, and in the case of Jordan and the UAE, in the percentage of women in political decision-making positions. But Syria (107), Ethiopia (122) and Saudi Arabia (128) dropped in the rankings. The report is the result of collaboration between Ricardo Hausmann, Director of the Centre for International Development at Harvard University; Laura Tyson, Professor of Business Administration and Economics at the University of California, Berkeley; and Saadia Zahidi, who runs the forum's women leaders. Tyson said the research shows "a strong correlation between competitiveness and the gender gap scores." "Countries that do not fully capitalize effectively on one-half of their human resources run the risk of undermining their competitive potential," she said in a statement. Zahidi said progress is possible in a relatively short space of time. "We found that countries such as Chile, Spain, Turkey and Finland have closed between 5 and 10 percentage points of their respective gender gaps over just the past eight years," she said in a statement. "When we interpret these percentage changes at the societal level, we see that hundreds of thousands of lives are impacted, and at the economic level, we see enormous potential competitiveness gains," Zahidi said. Hausmann said "the index assesses countries on how well they are dividing their resources and opportunities among their male and female populations, regardless of the overall levels of these resources and opportunities." "Thus, the index does not penalize those countries that have low levels of education overall, for example, but rather those where the distribution of education is uneven between women and men," he said.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #2 November 16, 2008 Here is my problem with any one who trys to measure progressions of woman's rights by looking at the gender of who is holding what kind of job. I think we all agree that men and woman should have the same rights. I find it untruthful to think men and woman are the same, we are not. We have different size organs, different hormones, different mucells, even are brains work differently. So is it wrong to assume that each gender might be genetically better to handle certain jobs, or maybe each gender is drawn to different jobs and seek different opportunities? (not talking about the exceptions)I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #3 November 16, 2008 QuoteHere is my problem with any one who trys to measure progressions of woman's rights by looking at the gender of who is holding what kind of job. I think we all agree that men and woman should have the same rights. I find it untruthful to think men and woman are the same, we are not. We have different size organs, different hormones, different mucells, even are brains work differently. So is it wrong to assume that each gender might be genetically better to handle certain jobs, or maybe each gender is drawn to different jobs and seek different opportunities? (not talking about the exceptions) We find ourselves in agreement. It's a matter of practicality that men and women are different and as such, while we should be "equal" we are not necessarily fitted for the same types of jobs all the time, and indeed, I too believe that some jobs attract more of one gender than another.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #4 November 16, 2008 Norway 2005 QuoteNorway enforces gender equality Independent, The (London), Dec 9, 2005 OSLO A gender equality law forcing Norwegian companies to fill 40 per cent of their board posts with women will take effect next month. 'The government has resolved that Norway, as the first country in the world, will demand gender balance on the boards of all publicly listed companies,' the minister for equality, Karita Bekkemellem, said. I wonder what happened to the incorrect-gender persons who previously held those positions? If the 40% mark wasn't reached by Jan 2008, the companies could be shut down forcibly by the govt. That is how you get to be Number One. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
windcatcher 0 #5 November 16, 2008 Quote So is it wrong to assume that each gender might be genetically better to handle certain jobs, or maybe each gender is drawn to different jobs and seek different opportunities? (not talking about the exceptions) Don't let the feminists hear that! Mother to the cutest little thing in the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #6 November 16, 2008 Quote Quote .... each gender might be genetically better to handle certain jobs.... Don't let the feminists hear that! Agreed. I was going to comment on this, but the little lady has almost finished her vacuuming and she might get upset if she sees this thread when she fetches my coffee!Mike. Edited to add: OUCH!! She saw it, and just like Darius said, she's just made at least one of my organs a different size!Mike Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #7 November 16, 2008 I was laughing so hard that I dropped my laptop and had to wait ages for the wife to pass it back to me. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alienangel 0 #8 November 16, 2008 Speaking as a 'feminist'...'equal' does not = 'the same'. Now, try saying the same thing about race and see what happens.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #9 November 16, 2008 Quote Don't let the feminists hear that! The truth shell set us free.and Mike you owe me a keyboardI'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
windcatcher 0 #10 November 16, 2008 So you don't think there are ANY feminists that would get upset if someone told them a man might be better suited for a job than a woman? Mother to the cutest little thing in the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #11 November 16, 2008 QuoteSo you don't think there are ANY feminists that would get upset if someone told them a man might be better suited for a job than a woman? Sure, but not ALL of them.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #12 November 16, 2008 Tell then not to worry their pretty littles heads over it. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
windcatcher 0 #13 November 16, 2008 Quote Quote So you don't think there are ANY feminists that would get upset if someone told them a man might be better suited for a job than a woman? Sure, but not ALL of them. K, just clarifying. Mother to the cutest little thing in the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,351 #14 November 16, 2008 I think equality is about using individual judgment, not preconceptions. Don't be surprised if most of your applicants for daycare worker are female, and don't be surprised if most of your applicants for sewer digger are male. But if a member of the nonstandard gender wants to give it a try, then equality means that you don't use their gender as an artificial barrier. It's an input, not a single deciding factor. Once it becomes a big input, or even more so, a deciding factor, then there is not equal access. Oh -- and equal means equal opportunity to fuck up, too. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #15 November 16, 2008 Quote ....Don't be surprised if most of your applicants for daycare worker are female..... That's absolutely right. And Clever You for noticing, you sweet little thing.(Misogynous)MikeEdited to add: Iona (my Wee-Wifey) has just seen this post... And has just re-sized another of my organs!Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,883 #16 November 16, 2008 QuoteQuoteHere is my problem with any one who trys to measure progressions of woman's rights by looking at the gender of who is holding what kind of job. I think we all agree that men and woman should have the same rights. I find it untruthful to think men and woman are the same, we are not. We have different size organs, different hormones, different mucells, even are brains work differently. So is it wrong to assume that each gender might be genetically better to handle certain jobs, or maybe each gender is drawn to different jobs and seek different opportunities? (not talking about the exceptions) We find ourselves in agreement. It's a matter of practicality that men and women are different and as such, while we should be "equal" we are not necessarily fitted for the same types of jobs all the time, and indeed, I too believe that some jobs attract more of one gender than another. That's as maybe, but the fact remains that by objective measures, some 26 other countries have done a better job than the USA in eliminating gender inequity.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #17 November 16, 2008 QuoteThat's as maybe, but the fact remains that by objective measures, some 26 other countries have done a better job than the USA in eliminating gender inequity. not necessarily. as posted earlier, norway has mandated that 40% of board posts be filled by women. that means that they have mandated that gender be a factor when filling positions. if the pool of people to choose from is 40% women and 60% men, then its not a big deal, but if the pool is 70/30 or 75/25, then its likely that a woman will be chosen over a more qualified man to fill a position in order to meet the mandate. a man will not get a job because of his gender. that is not gender equality. it does not make them any better than the us. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #18 November 16, 2008 Quote I think equality is about using individual judgment, not preconceptions. Don't be surprised if most of your applicants for daycare worker are female, and don't be surprised if most of your applicants for sewer digger are male. But if a member of the nonstandard gender wants to give it a try, then equality means that you don't use their gender as an artificial barrier. It's an input, not a single deciding factor. Once it becomes a big input, or even more so, a deciding factor, then there is not equal access. Oh -- and equal means equal opportunity to fuck up, too. You nailed it! I'd like to comment further, but I've been out in the cold--however beautiful and sunny--all day today on the boat sipping mimosas, and I'm in no shape to type grammatically correct using proper punctuation. I know from previous experience, I'll be pissed in the morning when I find I can no longer edit.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #19 November 16, 2008 QuoteThat's as maybe, but the fact remains that by objective measures, some 26 other countries have done a better job than the USA in eliminating gender inequity. (with my serious head on...) I'm not so sure that this is a competitive league. I see little difference in culture between America & Britain, yet one is in the top 28 and another is in the top 14. Perhaps this isn't a case of exact places, but rather one of which "quarter" or "division" you're in, with BOTH the US, UK, Germany, France... being in the quarter which allows equality of opportunity, pay and conditions, without resorting to positive discrimination to force an artificial equality. The exact placement may well be a function of the exact methods of scoring equality, and how well this scoring fits the country. I believe that the study originated in switzerland, so may well better reflect Northern European measures of gender equality. (non-mysogynous)Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwtom 0 #20 November 17, 2008 Quote I'm not so sure that this is a competitive league. I see little difference in culture between America & Britain, yet one is in the top 28 and another is in the top 14. Much of gender equality in the 21 century industrialized countries has not so much to do with "culture" but with proactive support. IMO, the by far most dominant career -breaker for women is having children. There are not only the obvious physical constraints during pregnancy and the first few months, but also most mother tend to be the primary care giver in the first few years - even with a stay-home-dad the mother is still the natural focal point of infants. How much a society achieves gender equality has thus a lot to what sort-of support it provides to mothers. What are the legal protections in regard to maternity leaves, how long are and how well compensated, is low-expense/high-quality child care available, etc. In the end success in a career is proportional to time invested, and responsible children rearing requires crazy amounts of time. From that point of view it is no surprise that Scandinavian countries are doing well, which have extensive social support system. I did not see the stats but I'd think also former eastern countries should be doing well due to socialist traditions which left, despite all the other mismanagement, a thoroughly organized child care system. It is also not a surprise that the USA is at the bottom of industrialized nations. Americans would rather see their education and child support system go to crap than pay a dime more taxes. Cheers, T ******************************************************************* Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #21 November 17, 2008 QuoteThat's as maybe, but the fact remains that by objective measures, some 26 other countries have done a better job than the USA in eliminating gender inequity. The assumption is that it has a positive value for the society. Let's look at it in real life. Using an example, say... MITs physics professors. clicky I counted over 125. Names that resembled female names? 5. To implement the Norway policy, 50 of the 127 male professors would need to be replaced by women. To teach physics at MIT, I suspect there are few slackers on their faculty. Firing 50 of the best and brightest for no reason other than gender is sexism. Is this the new gender equality? Those 50 are punished for no crime other than their gender? Is this new form of discrimination a goal? It would make MIT physics dept equal to Norway in fashion, but destroy the actual value of a university - teaching. That is a harsh price to pay for being fashionable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #22 November 17, 2008 QuoteIMO, the by far most dominant career -breaker for women is having children. There are not only the obvious physical constraints during pregnancy and the first few months, but also most mother tend to be the primary care giver in the first few years - even with a stay-home-dad the mother is still the natural focal point of infants. this is very true. i am the primary caregiver to our children and my wife works a lot of hours. when she is home, i cease to exist and mommy becomes chief boo boo kisser. my wife and other mothers i've talked to experience a huge amount of "mommy guilt". women are naturally inclined to stay home and nurture their children while men are driven to go out and kill something and drag it back to the cave to provide for the family. there will always be more men higher up the corporate than women, but with the increases in stay at home dads, we will see an increase in women in higher positions due to them having support systems. Quote Americans would rather see their education and child support system go to crap than pay a dime more taxes. Cheers, T as far as child support systems go, its not society's reposibility. our children are our responsibility, and believe me, we would love to have some support, but not at taxpayer expense. politicians need to make education a higher priority and then maybe we can talk about paying more taxes. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,883 #23 November 17, 2008 QuoteQuoteThat's as maybe, but the fact remains that by objective measures, some 26 other countries have done a better job than the USA in eliminating gender inequity. The assumption is that it has a positive value for the society. Let's look at it in real life. Using an example, say... MITs physics professors. clicky I counted over 125. Names that resembled female names? 5. To implement the Norway policy, 50 of the 127 male professors would need to be replaced by women. To teach physics at MIT, I suspect there are few slackers on their faculty. Firing 50 of the best and brightest for no reason other than gender is sexism. Is this the new gender equality? Those 50 are punished for no crime other than their gender? Is this new form of discrimination a goal? It would make MIT physics dept equal to Norway in fashion, but destroy the actual value of a university - teaching. That is a harsh price to pay for being fashionable. Your position is based on fallacious reasoning. The situation at MIT (and elsewhere) is just a reflection of the difficulty women face getting tenure in a male dominated profession for reasons having little to do with their ability and a lot to do with their gender... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #24 November 17, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteThat's as maybe, but the fact remains that by objective measures, some 26 other countries have done a better job than the USA in eliminating gender inequity. The assumption is that it has a positive value for the society. Let's look at it in real life. Using an example, say... MITs physics professors. clicky I counted over 125. Names that resembled female names? 5. To implement the Norway policy, 50 of the 127 male professors would need to be replaced by women. To teach physics at MIT, I suspect there are few slackers on their faculty. Firing 50 of the best and brightest for no reason other than gender is sexism. Is this the new gender equality? Those 50 are punished for no crime other than their gender? Is this new form of discrimination a goal? It would make MIT physics dept equal to Norway in fashion, but destroy the actual value of a university - teaching. That is a harsh price to pay for being fashionable. Your position is based on fallacious reasoning. The situation at MIT (and elsewhere) is just a reflection of the difficulty women face getting tenure in a male dominated profession for reasons having little to do with their ability and a lot to do with their gender I wasn't discussing a reason for the situation at all. The cause is irrelevant because Norway didn't establish a cause. They just implemented a broadsword "solution" for the entire country. Do it, or be put out of business. So, regardless of the reason, my question would still stand. Are you ok with implementing the Norway legal solution? 40% must be women by replacement. Firing 50 professors for the reason of being male. The method of implementation is the same. Firing 50 male MIT professors and replacing them with women to "achieve" the 40% level. In order to achieve the ranking that Norway has, are you willing to do that for MIT? For the entire US? Every business, every college, next year. A number one ranking looks great in meaningless statistics. I'd easily say that it sounds like a preposterously stupid idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #25 November 17, 2008 drowning statistics by country Out of 61 countries reporting - #4 United States 4,602 #57 Bahrain 9 Statistics show that the number of drownings in Bahrain is less than .2% of the US figure. The US should be sending delegates to Bahrain to discuss their plan for fighting this senseless loss of life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites