Thermate, WTC collapses

[DJL 232]

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like this one

or this one

or this one

then watch the WTC 1 an 2 falling down and aske why the top sections of both of these building turned to dust with large sections of steel columns being fired laterally out of them.

the buliding in these links will not have been made to anywhere near the standards of the WTC complex.

You're comparing steel construction to with poured concrete flooring to buildings that are nearly literally brick shithouses. One a grain silo, the next concrete internal columns with concrete walls with concrete floors, the last hardly even qualifies for debate since it's notched to fall like a tree. Please post your understanding of how the WTC was built.

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Also ask yourself, If i am so sure that the buildings could fall down on thier own accord, after the plane impacts, then why should such a large amount on explosives be needed using the same rationale?

The people who say that large amounts of explosives are needed are YOU and your conspiracy theory friends. WE'VE all been saying that if such large quantities are needed then how did they get there.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,391]

>then watch the WTC 1 an 2 falling down and aske why the top sections of
>both of these building turned to dust with large sections of steel columns
>being fired laterally out of them.

E=1/2MV^2, or MGH where M is mass, G is gravitational acceleration and H is height

Mass of tower - 450,000 metric tons
Average height - 215 meters

Potential energy in collapsing building: 9.6 x 10^11J
Equivalent energy in explosive force: .23 kilotons of TNT

Energy of "Little Boy" nuclear weapon dropped on Hiroshima - 13 kilotons

So that's why the building was turned to rubble and why steel columns were shattered, ejected and (in some cases) even melted. All that energy - almost 2% of the energy of the first atomic bomb we dropped - had to go somewhere.

[rhys 0]

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The people who say that large amounts of explosives are needed are YOU and your conspiracy theory friends. WE'VE all been saying that if such large quantities are needed then how did they get there.

Not at all, we are saying 'explosives were needed' to make them fall as they did, we don't assume an amount as the official story will try to;

They have contradicting stories, one saying that the bulidings did not need explosives to collapse, as in the NIST and Fema hypothesies.

but then they say "hundreds of pounds of therimate would be needed to make the same result?

You had better make up your mind people.
e in tact flors above the onset zone.

I won't assume numbers, ill just look at the facts.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[DJL 232]

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The people who say that large amounts of explosives are needed are YOU and your conspiracy theory friends. WE'VE all been saying that if such large quantities are needed then how did they get there.

Not at all, we are saying 'explosives were needed' to make them fall as they did, we don't assume an amount as the official story will try to;

They have contradicting stories, one saying that the bulidings did not need explosives to collapse, as in the NIST and Fema hypothesies.

but then they say "hundreds of pounds of therimate would be needed to make the same result?

You had better make up your mind people.
e in tact flors above the onset zone.

I won't assume numbers, ill just look at the facts.

Answer these questions:

What caused the initial failure (the first floor to fall) at the WTC?

What caused the continuing collapse of the WTC?

If thermate was placed at each level then how much was put there?

How did it get there?

What is your understanding of the construction of the WTC vs. the construction of the buildings you posted?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[mnealtx 0]

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ill just look at the facts.

You haven't up to this point, why start now?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[sundevil777 93]

When are you going to address the question of how fast the buildings should have collapsed, given that you say they collapsed too quickly?

You should not make that claim unless you have a target for what it should have been, arrived at by analysis or testing.

Please at least respond by acknowledging you don't have an answer, if that is the case.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[mnealtx 0]

Ever notice they've got some sort of comeback for everything but "why would a government that just killed 3000+ of it's own citizens let these schlumps live"?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[dks13827 2]

Discovery Channel showed some engineers who set up a demo that showed how the WTC buildings would indeed pancake down if you weakened the inside steal beams. It was identical to what actually happened.

[kallend 1,622]

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So that's why the building was turned to rubble and why steel columns were shattered, ejected and (in some cases) even melted. All that energy - almost 2% of the energy of the first atomic bomb we dropped - had to go somewhere.

A lot of it turned into the hot air of conspiracy theorists.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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So that's why the building was turned to rubble and why steel columns were shattered, ejected and (in some cases) even melted. All that energy - almost 2% of the energy of the first atomic bomb we dropped - had to go somewhere.

A lot of it turned into the hot air of conspiracy theorists.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[sundevil777 93]

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Ever notice they've got some sort of comeback for everything but "why would a government that just killed 3000+ of it's own citizens let these schlumps live"?

Of course I understand the point you're making (kill those that are a threat to the conspiracy). However, one could also conclude that letting them live will deny the consp theorists more ammo, since they aren't well respected anyway (coincidental deaths), so I think the fact they are still living isn't a point worth making.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[sundevil777 93]

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Discovery Channel showed some engineers who set up a demo that showed how the WTC buildings would indeed pancake down if you weakened the inside steal beams. It was identical to what actually happened.

You're saying that their experiment rejected the claims of consp theorists, right?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[winsor 186]

When I was a youngster, it seemed unlikely that the average Stanford-Binet score was actually 100. I could not concieve of people on the low end of the two-digit range being able to get through life.

A few years in the Army disabused me of that notion. It occurred to me that, say, Labrador Retrievers do not do well on standardized tests, yet they go through life generation after generation with their own peculiar version of cognitive and correlative skills - and that their human analogue is closer to the norm than one might guess.

Every time I catch myself falling prey to the illusion that progress might take place by dint of enlightenment of the masses, however slight, I am forcefully remided of the extent to which the obvious is to remain forever elusive to the bulk of humanity.

Intelligence is vastly overrated. I contend that stupidity is a force with unlimited potential, and that anyone who comes across the means to harness ignorance is set for life. Witness Scientology.

Taylor Caldwell put it ever so succinctly that five percent of the population think, five percent think they think and ninety percent would sooner die than think.

I have the sneaking suspicion that she, like George Orwell, was an optimist.

Thermite? That does not rise to the level of a good joke.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[cumplidor 0]

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You haven't addressed my question about how fast the buildings should have fallen, but I will address this question of yours (similarity to controlled demolitions). You say because it looks so similar, that the conclusion it was a controlled demolition (CD) is reasonable. I say that in order to make that conclusion, you should have examples of collapses that even you would accept as not a CD.

How fast should they have fallen if it wasn't a CD? I don't know. Do you know? Bill provided some math, but someone did peg that physics wasn't exactly my fav subject, even though I did understand it. I am just wondering about the 47 vertical interconnected steel core columns that are >1000 feet high causing at least some resistance during the collapse? 47 massive interconnected steel columns, running the entire core of the building, anchored into the bedrock 4 stories below the surface, would logically provide resistance right? Idk how much- too many other factors involved, but they obviously provided NO resistance at all. This just seems illogical to me without precutting core columns or using preset thermite to cut the columns. The close proximity of uncut 47 core columns (for 80+floors), would seem to me to provide more than enough resistance to make it NOT look like a CD. How much?- again I don't know, but enough to make it NOT resemble a CD. Not free-fall speed in other words.

I will flip the rest of your statement back at you- what examples of complete high rise collapses do you have that were not a CD? We have all seen many examples of CDs, but there has been no steel frame building complete collapse due to fires or plane strikes, since that day or prior to it, has there?

If not, the only non CD collapses I can think of would then be due to earthquakes, aerial bombings, faulty footers, movement of the ground under the building and such, right? These would not be comparable to the events of 911-

There are no other examples of planes hitting buildings causing a complete collapse, yet there are examples of planes hitting buildings and subsequent fires, with minimal structural failure as a result, but no collapse.

There are also examples of fires within steel framed buildings. While some were very extreme fires, none of them caused a complete failure as occurred on 911, thrice.

I would also argue that if all it took to take down steel framed buildings was J1 and office furniture fires, then why are the CD companies still pre-cutting the steel support beams? The cavemen didn't need to cut the support beams, why do we? Are we just more sophisticated or are we just not smarter than cavemen?

Are we omitting the obvious savings on future building demolitions? A completely new way for a perfect building collapse was 'discovered' by the cavemen, right? Using absolutely no demolition crew, these cavemen put 2 entire 110 story office (and b7) buildings into their basement using only jet fuel and office furniture (not quite sure about how they pulled b7). Logically speaking, it would seem quite a boon to the CD industry would it not? Just blow out one floor about 2/3 the way up (to simulate the plane crash), while simultaneously setting off 1000 gallons of jet fuel (to weaken the core structure and all the supports and such), let the fires burn a little while and shortly you (should) have a perfect collapse due to the fires, right? Hey Bill- you got a formula for the cost savings over a traditional CD?

While Building 7 collapsed without any significant internal structural damage, all three buildings collapse perfectly conforms to the whole goal of a perfect CD- "Completely breaking up the entire building into small pieces and put them all into the basement for easy removal", another clear indication of why it would appear to be a CD- yet you still would say it was cavemen from Afghanistan doing the blind squirrel.

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How many examples of high rise collapses have you witnessed that you would accept were not a CD (of course not including the WTC)?

I haven't seen any beside 911. I would ask you how many examples of a complete high rise collapses, that were not a CD, are you aware of? Please provide links if you have. Three occurred in a single day, and to my knowledge not one before or after that day.

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You have nothing to compare it to, so your conclusion is without justification,

This occurs in your argument?

Consider this:
You are shown, by someone whom you trust implicitly, a creature that appears to be a dog. But you are told it is not a dog. You are told it is some new kind of animal not even related to a dog. Now, just because you are told its not a dog, does that really stop it from looking like one?

Just because we are told that B1,2&7 are not examples of CD, the collapses still very much look like a CD (yes or no). Disbelief that your government would lie to you or could plan or implement some event like this is not proof it could not or would not happen. If you really take all other oddities and bizarre coincidences of that day (and during the weeks prior and after), plus a lack of any real investigation of any kind, how can you conclude otherwise? (unless you have a high paying job you don't want to loose being labeled a CT, then I totally understand ) We are continually reassured the 911 were attacks by cavemen. I know this generation grew up on cartoons, comic books, Star Wars and such, but uh, "Bitch, please", Anyone who questions the official caveman theory is quickly labeled a quack, kook, unpatriotic and being disrespectful to the dead. Not to mention, they get accused of talking to Shirley McClaine, hanging out at Area 51 or Waco or whatever pops into their mind.

To me, launching wars without end as the result of lies, suspending all remnants of the Constitution, killing tens of thousands of innocents and harming tens of thousands of our troops to such a point they are never able to really return- that is much more disrespectful than me questioning the caveman theory, IMO.

And to those that have a hard time seeing the things I see, well, okay, we agree to disagree about what we see.

[billvon 2,391]

> I am just wondering about the 47 vertical interconnected steel core columns
>that are >1000 feet high causing at least some resistance during the collapse?

They did! That's why it didn't fall at free fall speeds. Timing from videos (until the top of the building disappeared) revealed an acceleration of about 70% that you'd expect from a freefalling object with no resistance.

>then why are the CD companies still pre-cutting the steel support beams?

Because then they need less costly explosives/wiring. Acetylene is cheap.

>There are no other examples of planes hitting buildings causing a complete
>collapse, yet there are examples of planes hitting buildings and subsequent fires,
>with minimal structural failure as a result, but no collapse.

There are also no examples of a fully fueled 767 flying at full speed into a 70+ story building where the building did NOT collapse. There have, of course, been smaller planes flying more slowly into smaller buildings.

>Using absolutely no demolition crew, these cavemen put 2 entire 110 story
>office (and b7) buildings into their basement using only jet fuel and office
>furniture . . .

Don't forget the 767.

>Logically speaking, it would seem quite a boon to the CD industry would it not?

?? 767's are about $150 million a piece. Explosives are cheaper. Acetylene is even cheaper than that.

>You are shown, by someone whom you trust implicitly, a creature that
>appears to be a dog. But you are told it is not a dog. You are told it is some
>new kind of animal not even related to a dog. Now, just because you are told
>its not a dog, does that really stop it from looking like one?

Nope. You can believe that a mountain lion is a dog. But that doesn't make it one - even if it's the same size, color and shape. Indeed, if you become positive that it IS a dog, you would be doing more to demonstrate your own ignorance of taxonomy than you would be doing to "prove" that a mountain lion is a dog.

[cumplidor 0]

Way to plink those keys without typing anything of much worth, but alas, I have noticed that about you sometimes-

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Timing from videos (until the top of the building disappeared) revealed an acceleration of about 70% that you'd expect from a freefalling object with no resistance.

Are you trying to say like the hand of Allah slammed the towers down, thus accelerating their fall?

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There are also no examples of a fully fueled 767 flying at full speed into a 70+ story building where the building did NOT collapse. There have, of course, been smaller planes flying more slowly into smaller buildings.

The B52 that hit the Empire State building may not have been fully fueled, but didn't even come close to collapsing the structure. Do tell me how long it would take for 800 gallons of J1 fuel to burn up? I'd say pretty fast. hardly seems enough time to substantially weaken 47 1400 ft steel core columns and all supports enough to allow a CD like decent. But what do I know, I am not an engineer, right? Your the smart guy-

What was the formula for the cost savings of traditional demolition vs caveman demolition?

You've given me 150mil for the plane & fuel (lets say 1 mil more)- 151million to demo b1 via the caveman method versus traditional. I would bet that 151mil would have been a bargain compared to the necessary asbestos cleanup or a 'traditional' demolition and cleanup. Not to mention the health threats and liability of asbestos dust from the CD and cleanup. And the insurance company ultimately paid for the cleanup too!

I didn't say a cat, but if that's what you were told and it still looked like a dog, I guess you will see a mtn lion. *shrug* what does a dog look like to you if its a mtn lion now?

[PhreeZone 15]

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The B52 that hit the Empire State building may not have been fully fueled, but didn't even come close to collapsing the structure

It was a B-25. Much, much smaller then even the smallest Boeing passenger jet and you are dealing with a steel/stone structure versus a steel/Glass structure.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,391]

>Are you trying to say like the hand of Allah slammed the towers down, thus
>accelerating their fall?

No. If you are the religious sort, the hand of Allah slowed the collapse. If you are more of an engineering sort, the resistance of the remaining structure slowed the collapse to 70% of what it would have been otherwise.

>The B52 that hit the Empire State building may not have been fully fueled, but
>didn't even come close to collapsing the structure.

No B52 ever hit the Empire State Building. However, in 1945, a B25 (a much smaller plane) did hit the Empire State Building. Let's compare:

B25 speed at impact - 90mph
767 speed at impact - 590mph

B25 weight - 33,000 pounds loaded
767 weight -350,000 pounds takeoff

B25 wingspan: 67 feet
767 wingspan: 150 feet

Do you note any differences there?

>You've given me 150mil for the plane & fuel (lets say 1 mil more)- 151million to
>demo b1 via the caveman method versus traditional. I would bet that 151mil
>would have been a bargain compared to the necessary asbestos cleanup or a
>'traditional' demolition and cleanup.

Give it a shot! If you are correct, then you will undercut all traditional demolition companies and make millions.

However, something tells me you are not correct, and demolishing buildings by flying $150 million aircraft into them may not be the cash cow you imagine.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Way to plink those keys without typing anything of much worth, but alas, I have noticed that about you sometimes-

Bill, I know you tolerate these PAs from idiots as a rule, but seems to beg a response.

CU - you continue to admit you have no meaningful scientific background, but the entire basis of your whackjob CT claim is that it 'looks funny.' That's pretty much the level of reasoning behind Intelligent Design (aka, creationism).

Do you believe al Queda is part of this conspiracy? That they claimed credit for something they did not do? Or do you believe they are, more or less, a pack of Muslim freedom fighters railing against the imperialist West?

If they're truly at war with us, they would have far more to gain by exposing Bushco as the mastermind. Yet somehow that hasn't shown up in their rhetoric. They continue to behave the same as always.

I'm loving the idea of using jumbo jets to save on demolition costs. Could we promote you to the White House and hear your BRILLIANT ideas on how to make health care cheaper?

[jakee 1,254]

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Are you trying to say like the hand of Allah slammed the towers down, thus accelerating their fall?

Pop quiz, is 70% of a given number more or less than the original number?

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The B52 that hit the Empire State building may not have been fully fueled, but didn't even come close to collapsing the structure.

It was a B25. Look up a photo of a B25 and compare it to a 767. The difference is kinda important.

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I'd say pretty fast. hardly seems enough time to substantially weaken 47 1400 ft steel core columns and all supports enough to allow a CD like decent. But what do I know, I am not an engineer, right?

No, you're not, and therefore your assumptions are meaningless.

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I didn't say a cat, but if that's what you were told and it still looked like a dog, I guess you will see a mtn lion. *shrug* what does a dog look like to you if its a mtn lion now?

Don't try to be clever. You're ill equipped for the task.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 1,622]

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Are you trying to say like the hand of Allah slammed the towers down, thus accelerating their fall?

Pop quiz, is 70% of a given number more or less than the original number?

Is the original number positive or negative?

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The B52 that hit the Empire State building may not have been fully fueled, but didn't even come close to collapsing the structure.

It was a B25. Look up a photo of a B25 and compare it to a 767. The difference is kinda important.

25, 52, who cares, they're just planes.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[cumplidor 0]

Has anyone seen the documents where scientists show they have found thermite particles in the dust from the towers?

Has anyone seen the video where VP Biden was presented with this document, and his subsequent reaction?

Thanks everyone 2 for focusing on my b25 typo, but the point I was trying to illustrate was we have many examples of planes flying into buildings and many examples of fires much more intense, in steel framed structures, yet they failed to bring down the building or cause significant structural damage to lead to a collapse.

No one really addresses Building 7's collapse, which in and of itself indicates element of doubt within the official story- since the "investigation" doesn't even recognize this fact.

Why not release any of the confiscated videos of the pentagon incident? wouldn't their release only support the official story? By releasing only the one inconclusive video, that would add to the element of doubt, in my opinion.

But not to the guys who read Popular Mechanics!?

I just hope to get more folks to ask questions with their minds open rather than blinders on.

Take care all-

[kelpdiver 2]

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Has anyone seen the video where VP Biden was presented with this document, and his subsequent reaction?

Biden was part of the Bushco conspiracy?

Lieberman, I could believe.

[Rookie120 0]

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25, 52, who cares, they're just planes.

Ok, my theory is it was a PA-24!

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 2,391]

>No one really addresses Building 7's collapse

There are reams of reports on why it collapsed.

>many examples of fires much more intense, in steel framed
>structures, yet they failed to bring down the building . . .

=============================
Last Updated: Wednesday, 1 November 2006

A toilet paper factory in Worcestershire has been severely damaged in a major fire.

About 50 firefighters tackled the blaze at the ESP plant in the Enigma Business Park, near Malvern, which started on Wednesday morning.

The roof collapsed inside the building and flames leapt 45ft (14m) into the sky in a strong wind, Hereford and Worcester Fire and Rescue Service said.

The cause of the fire is not known and nobody has been hurt in the incident.

Firefighters could still not get into the building on Wednesday lunchtime and a full investigation will start when they can gain access.

A spokesman for the fire service said the blaze had resulted in a black smoke cloud which could be seen for miles.

He added: "Intense heat buckled the steel girders holding the roof."
====================================

Shame on them for making thermite toilet paper.