Shooting in Finnish school

[kallend 1,920]

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...great care should be taken to prevent them from getting guns.

And explosives.

It's ironic how you are so hell-fire bent on keeping loonies from getting guns, yet you want anyone at all to be able to buy all the rocket motor explosives they want without any government oversight whatsoever.

Of course, this double standard comes from your own hobby use of rocket motors. Since you don't like guns, every restriction is okay against them. But when the government cracks down on your own personal hobby, you're outraged! How dare they question your purchase of explosives!

Trouble with your argument is that APCP doesn't explode even if you put a detonator in it or wrap it with det cord.

Care to provide links to any homicides committed by loonies with APCP?

I can provide hundreds for loonies with guns.

True. But I would bet it would if you put it into a sealed steel pipe (which you can get at any hardware store).

Wheat explodes in an enclosed space too.

So does coal.

And gasoline is used to make Molotov Cocktails.

Propane does a good job as an explosive too.

However, loonies seems to have a distinct preference for guns when going on a homicidal rampage.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,920]

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Trouble with your argument is that APCP doesn't explode even if you put a detonator in it or wrap it with det cord.

Trouble with your argument is that the BATF has classified it as an explosive. And when the hobby rocket men challenged this determination in court, they lost. So whether you like it or not, it's an "explosive".

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Care to provide links to any homicides committed by loonies with APCP?

I don't have any for that particular substance,

Right, and you won't. Because guns are so much easier. It is damn near impossible to make an effective explosion using APCP. And if you want to set a fire, gasoline is easier and cheaper.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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Is there an echo in here?

Common sense is all.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Right, and you won't. Because guns are so much easier. It is damn near impossible to make an effective explosion using APCP. And if you want to set a fire, gasoline is easier and cheaper.

Still it could be done. Just like criminals could buy weapons. But knives are still cheaper.

John, the problem is you seem to agree on limits to OTHER peoples freedoms. Most have agreed with you that nutters should be prevented from getting guns. The problem is you feel it is fine to step on everyone's rights to prevent it...While at the same time lamenting the same issue with one of your hobby's.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,920]

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Right, and you won't. Because guns are so much easier. It is damn near impossible to make an effective explosion using APCP. And if you want to set a fire, gasoline is easier and cheaper.

Still it could be done. Just like criminals could buy weapons. But knives are still cheaper.

John, the problem is you seem to agree on limits to OTHER peoples freedoms. Most have agreed with you that nutters should be prevented from getting guns. The problem is you feel it is fine to step on everyone's rights to prevent it...While at the same time lamenting the same issue with one of your hobby's.

Maybe it's because guns are used in tens of THOUSANDS of homicides and hundreds of THOUSANDS of other crimes every year, and there's no instance of anyone ever using APCP in a crime anywhre.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[christelsabine 1]

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It's been changed 18. Still too young.

This is the problem. if we all treat 18yrs of age as "Children" they will be as responsible as children.

Give it a fucking break, 18 is a damned adult, and you know it.

Society is to blame for this crap.

Treat 18 like the adult they are, in full.

Perhaps, not many of your 18 y/o kids still are in school/high school, whatever. Many of ours are. They are somewhere in between, no more kids and not yet adults.

I just guess: You have no kids. How much experience do you personally have with 17, 18 y/o then??

With 18, they are no "damed adults". They're starting to become adults. For many of them, it will need many years.

We treat kids as kids, teenies as teenies, young adults as "young adults" - especially in our legislation. That's the difference. Your country kills young adults.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[warpedskydiver 0]

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It's been changed 18. Still too young.

This is the problem. if we all treat 18yrs of age as "Children" they will be as responsible as children.

Give it a fucking break, 18 is a damned adult, and you know it.

Society is to blame for this crap.

Treat 18 like the adult they are, in full.

Perhaps, not many of your 18 y/o kids still are in school/high school, whatever. Many of ours are. They are somewhere in between, no more kids and not yet adults.

I just guess: You have no kids. How much experience do you personally have with 17, 18 y/o then??

With 18, they are no "damed adults". They're starting to become adults. For many of them, it will need many years.

We treat kids as kids, teenies as teenies, young adults as "young adults" - especially in our legislation. That's the difference. Your country kills young adults.

I rest my case,

In your country, men and women serve in your armed forces at that age, and yet you perceive them to be "not adults", but as people who are somewhat diminished in their ability to decide things for themselves

They cannot therefore responsible for themselves, as well as the security of your entire country, and should not be trusted to do so.

I am sure everyone is of the same opinion as you are.

[Skyrad 0]

God save uus from the evildoeers!

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Mr. Kallend also continuously expresses his dislike for American society

Thats a bit strong, Care to back up that claim John?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[millertime24 8]

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That's the difference. Your country kills young adults.

Thats almost commical. Not to split hairs or anything but history tells us that YOUR country......nevermind.

Muff #5048

[christelsabine 1]

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That's the difference. Your country kills young adults.

Thats almost commical. Not to split hairs or anything but history tells us that YOUR country......nevermind.

I can understand you. Your pain.

Difference is:
3rd Reich killed under false premises which is more than 60 years ago.

Your country does it still nowadays. And calls it legal.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[martin-o 0]

In the US: At what age are you allowed to join the army and go and shoot at iraqies, and at what age are you allowed to buy a beer?

/Martin

[christelsabine 1]

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It's been changed 18. Still too young.

I disagree.

If you teach them at an early age about firearms, they are less likely to mishandle them.

Now, nutters like this are always going to exist....And as the story said, he also had explosives with him.

So, blame the person, not the tools.

I disagree, too.

Our societies are too different. For us it's absolutely not normal, to let a kid grow up with (handling of) weapons. An exception might be a family of hunters, where grandpa, dad and kid go together, so the young one is going to learn from the beginning (what is not a bad thing!) to treat a weapon for what it is: No toy, it's deadly. But that's quite rare.

We have no need to be armed in private life.

I said it a hundred times and will repeat again: I (we are) am leaving home at any time - day and night - w/o carrying any weapon (on me). My city with about 1 million inhabitants is not that small, we have our crime rate. But do not need to be armed.

If our kids would have access to weapons as easy as yours have, I'd blame government and lousy laws. Not the person itself.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[birdlike 0]

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Loonies and guns don't mix.

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"The Finnish news agency STT said the school building was on fire and the gunman reportedly had explosives on him."

Loonies and explosives toy rocket engines don't mix.

Fixed it.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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WTF is a "22-millimeter caliber handgun"?!

You do know not that much about guns/handguns/calibers, do you)


Cal. .22 LR often is used for close season hand guns/guns.

That guy used a Walther P22.

You don't know much about reading what was written, do you.

Nice going.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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WTF is a "22-millimeter caliber handgun"?!

You do know not that much about guns/handguns/calibers, do you)
Cal. .22 LR often is used for close season hand guns/guns.
That guy used a Walther P22.

Actually, he does - that's why he's questioning the news story which lists the gun as a 22-millimeter, which can't be correct - no such handgun exists.

It's the news story which got the identification of the caliber incorrect, not birdlike.

You apparently don't know the difference between millimeters and caliber.

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WTF is a "22-millimeter caliber handgun"?

Are you kidding me? What is to be misunderstood in the word "... calibre ...." handgun?

Why the fuck would you choose to dig yourself deeper, here?

I linked to the article, and quoted from it. The quote said, "22-millimeter caliber." People have done you the courtesy of explaining why YOU were wrong and I was right, and still you are disputing this even though you are clearly wrong.

It is so much fun to watch you do this to yourself. Carry on.

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You had a look at the provided link? It's not only showing the calibre description but, the metering rule too, which is 22 mm. Even the dumbest reader of the link will understand these explanations.

A 22 mm bullet would be .866 inches in diameter. Do you really want to keep pushing the notion that this is correct? A bullet more than 3/4 of an inch in diameter? Fired from a handgun?

"Even the dumbest reader," huh?

It's amazing how you will condescend to the death, despite being flagrantly incorrect.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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You mean this:

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She says the man used a 22-millimeter caliber handgun in Tuesday's attack. Holmlund says he got the license for the gun in August.

It's from Jeffrey's link. JR is incorrect: The gun was not "listed as a 22-millimeter". It's described as "a 22 mm caliber handgun", which is quite common. At least for me.

You STILL don't understand that "mm caliber" is a nonsensical, incorrect term, huh?

A "22 mm caliber handgun" is common, huh?

Where have you seen a 22 mm handgun? Do you dispute that 22 mm is equivalent to .866 inches?

This is just so damned funny it oughta be illegal.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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Loonies and wasting half the f&^%$#g thread on nomenclature don't mix.

We're just trying to educate someone who is just recalcitrant in her wrongness. NOT our fault that the thread gets spent trying to make her understand something that "even the dumbest reader" should grasp immediately.

She just appears to not want to be proven wrong. The sad thing is that of everyone, ONLY SHE will not see that it has already happened.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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I went to pick up some reloading supplies the other day. I was looking for some .40S&W bullets, but the store only had 10mm. Oh well guess Ill have to wait until some come in.

The ".40 S&W" cartridge is indeed a cut-down version of the 10mm, which was beating the shit out of guns that were built for the 9mm cartridge way back when in the '80s, I believe.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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It's been changed 18. Still too young.

And yet if that 18-year-old went to join the military and was trained to fly jets faster than the speed of sound, and drop 1000 lb. bombs on human beings and buildings, you'd say "OK," right? Or do you have an objection 18-year-old adults joining the military?

You don't want them owning guns.

You don't object to them flying jets, skydiving, drinking alcohol (isn't most of Europe 18+ for alcohol?), driving automobiles... and voting to elect leaders. But you don't like them having guns at 18.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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WTF is a "22-millimeter caliber handgun"?!

You do know not that much about guns/handguns/calibers, do you)

Have a look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Long_Rifle

Cal. .22 LR often is used for close season hand guns/guns.

That guy used a Walther P22.

Please show us that 22 millimeter pistol, Christel.

I wasn't aware the Walther made a pistol with a bore of almost an inch.

On the topic of "bore", your entire debate over an obvious typo fits the bill perfectly.

It wouldn't have gone this long if christalsebine hadn't refused to admit she was wrong. Regardless of whether I was being sarcastic or not in my OP (hint: I was, as evidenced by the reference to Danny Vermin's ".88 Magnum" that "shoots through schools"), she took up the mantle of arguing that there is indeed a "22 millimeter caliber" handgun.

Don't condemn us for the debate when the debate would not be going on but for her intransigence when presented with disproof of her assertion.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[quade 4]

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And yet if that 18-year-old went to join the military and was trained to fly jets faster than the speed of sound, and drop 1000 lb. bombs on human beings and buildings, you'd say "OK," right? Or do you have an objection 18-year-old adults joining the military?

Just to be fair on the entire nomenclature issue . . .

Much like there isn't a "22-millimeter caliber handgun," I seriously doubt you'll find many 18-year-old jet pilots on bombing missions.

Certainly not in the US forces and I doubt anywhere else as well.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[birdlike 0]

That may be true, but it's feasible. And weren't there 19- and 20-year-olds flying serious hardware in the Second World War?

Are there not 18-year-old TOW missile operators? Do 18-year-olds not carry fully automatic rifles into battle?

Now, can we still talk about the feasibility of a .866 caliber handgun?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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I think too many folks are arguing the pointless shit. Who cares what size it is? A bullet is a bullet when fired in anger.

Yes, but what's interesting here is that the type of handgun used doesn't fit any of the categories that the gun-o-phobes like to blame for crime. It wasn't an "assault weapon". It wasn't a "powerful" gun. It wasn't "easily concealable". It wasn't a "Saturday night special". It didn't have a "silencer". The gun was bought legally. The shooter was of legal age. They've got nowhere to go on this one to use it as an example for banning any category of guns, or creating yet more gun control.

All they can do is what they should have been doing all along - which is to blame the shooter.

What this incident shows is that even .22 caliber target pistols, shooting the smallest bullets of any guns, can still be deadly in the hands of someone evil. Therefore, all the energy spent trying to ban all those other categories is really just a waste of time.

Masterful post, JohnRich. Thank you.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[quade 4]

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That may be true, but it's feasible.

Not really. Aircraft today require a metric crapload more training and the armed forces generally require a college degree and officers training before a person can really even begin to think of sitting in the left seat. Not really certain what the youngest pilot in Iraq is but my guess is he's at least 24.

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And weren't there 19- and 20-year-olds flying serious hardware in the Second World War?

Different times . . . people used to marry when they were 14 too. That doesn't normally happen in the US any more either.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver