Manufacturing Dissent

[ianmdrennan 2]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0961117/

Has anyone else seen this? I used to be a 'fan' of Bowling for Columbine, and Fahrenheit 911, and Micheal Moore in general - but after watching this I can only say I'm quite disappointed in MM's fabrications.

I had always thought that he presented a factual, albeit very skewed, view - I'm not afraid to say that I was quite incorrect from what this shows.

It's noteworthy that the documentary was produced by MM FANS, who ultimately become disillusioned with MM and his lies.

It's a pity, the message he's trying to get across I believe in, but I absolutely do NOT believe that the end's justifies the means. Moreso I'm not convinced he actually believes the message himself.....overall, quite saddening.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[lawrocket 3]

Michael Moore's work can probably be called, "Based on a True Story." Much like the Bible, MM takes some historical facts and events and gives them meanings far beyond what they actually are.

Columbine was a couple of crazy bullied kids who figured they'd kill a lot of people as their way to glory. But if you want to ascribe some statement to it, then go ahead and blame the NRA and the GOP, etc.

Oliver Stone took a historical fact (JFK was assassinated) and weaved a fictional tale. Much of it was based on fact (Jim Garrison did, in fact, prosecute for it). But Jim Garrison never made an impassioned jury speech. In fact, Jim Garrison was a megalomaniacal sociopathic bigot who went on a crusade against homosexuals. The fact that there was no credible evidence? So what? What's a ruined life here and there if Big Jim could get some press for it?

And yet, with such spin, horror stories like Jim Garrison get painted as heroes. Facts be damned.

MM has a point to make. He cannot really make his point with honesty and integrity, since the evidence just cannot fully support it. So make up facts to show that you are right.

If you have to make up things to prove your point, then your point cannot be proven.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Well, I always knew he was a spin doctor. So I took his presentation with a grain of salt and looked for the deeper meaning. What this documentary showed was outright staged fabrication on occasion to make his 'point'.

I definitely felt lied to, and disappointed. As soon as you totally fabricate something ALL your credibility is removed (to me - see views on the current administration
I don't think he's in it for 'the message' - I now think that he's a manipulative stagemaster. Frankly, I feel, after watching this documentary, that I'm watching a televangilist whenever I see him on screen. Lots of yelling, falsehoods, and hypocrisy.

Pity.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[downwardspiral 0]

I've never watched Fahrenheit 911 until about 6 months ago. When I finally did I wasn't impressed...and I'm not a Bush supporter.

I haven't seen Bowling for Columbine but I imagine it's where a lot of anti-gunners got their arguments which is a pretty good indication the movie is shit.

And most recent is Sicko. Not interested in seeing it because at this point Michael Moore is a joke in my mind. He has absolutely no intention to do the world or even the USA any good. All he wants to do is line his pockets and he could care less if by doing so he is making America stupider.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Andy9o8 0]

He uses his genius for Good to defeat Evil.
Casualties are acceptable.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

He uses his genius for Good to defeat Evil.
Casualties are acceptable.

See, I think that makes 'him' no better than 'them'.

I used to have respect for the man, and I used to think he was in it for the right reasons.

Now, I think he's in it to shamelessly self-promote himself (see televangelist). Total scripting, and fabrication are NOT documentaries. If you use a tactic like that, even ONCE, your credibility goes out the window.

I don't really have any time for him, anymore.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[mnealtx 0]

Exactly - glad you saw through it!!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[ianmdrennan 2]

Don't get too excited

Performance Designs Factory Team

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Don't get too excited - I still believe in the underlying messages (often at least) of what he's portraying. I just think he, himself, is no better than the people he's got a chip on his shoulder for (right or wrong).

No worries - you saw his movies for the overblown hype that they are - that's a good step.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[millertimeunc 0]

We had to watch most of his movies (all except Fahrenheit 911) in a sociology class I had in college. In my opinion, it was a monumental waste of time. It's depressing to see how many people will buy into it hook, line, and sinker without doing any research on their own. I'll give MM credit for being able to make you see what he wants you to see.

The best things in life are dangerous.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

I'll give MM credit for being able to make you see what he wants you to see.

THAT, he is very, VERY good at - until you start digging, as Ian did.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Samurai136 0]

Quote

Quote

Don't get too excited - I still believe in the underlying messages (often at least) of what he's portraying. I just think he, himself, is no better than the people he's got a chip on his shoulder for (right or wrong).

No worries - you saw his movies for the overblown hype that they are - that's a good step.

Michael Moore is not a reporter. Documentaries are not "hard news" reporting of facts and events. MM shows an entertaining interpretation of current events/ issues in the documentary format.

No worries- once you can see the hype separate from his movies you'll realize something most of us knew 20 years ago - that's a good step.


Vote for Ficus!

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[birdlike 0]

Quote

He uses his genius for Good to defeat Evil.
Casualties are acceptable.

In the case of the gun issue in Bowling for Columbine, he first has to LIE and DISTORT to even establish that one side is "evil."

Here is a link to one of many websites that thoroughly shreds the bullshit that Moore packed into BFC. If you think he's Mr. Good fighting all the Mr. Evils of the world (especially those evil evil pro-gunners), then read this site's offerings and see if you still believe Moore's lies.

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

A particularly good part is found if you scroll down until you see pictures of Charlton Heston. In the section above that, there is a link titled "CLICK HERE for the comparison."

He dissects the OUTRIGHT DISTORTION that Moore deliberately put into the film, with regard to the speeches given by Heston and the claims Moore makes about them.

Andy9o8, it's one thing to cheer someone who is trying to defeat evil. It's quite different when a guy like Moore has to LIE just to MAKE someone appear evil before trying to defeat him.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

Quote

Quote

I'll give MM credit for being able to make you see what he wants you to see.

THAT, he is very, VERY good at - until you start digging, as Ian did.

I don't see that as being evidence of a talent. All it takes is a refusal to put forth what's objective; a willingness to utterly skew what is put forth; and then a pathological willingness to defend the lies, and to call anyone who exposes them liars, themselves.

Come on, really, all Moore did was make a movie showing a version of reality that he wishes were true because his version makes gun owners and the pro-gun movement look bad. Like when he depicts himself walking out of a bank with a rifle he "got" for opening an account there. In fact, the bank does not (and never did) hand out rifles there at the bank. That scene was STAGED, FALSIFIED, to make it seem that's what went on. In truth, customers opening new accounts (with a minimum $1000 deposit) got vouchers toward gun purchases at a brick-and-mortar gun shop.

And anyway, why would it be dangerous to give out an unloaded rifle in a bank in the first place? Anyone eligible to get one just handed you his identification (to open the account) and had to come in with $1000 to begin with. And if that person came up with $1000 in order to get a rifle and then intended to use that rifle there in the bank, wouldn't that person have just bought himself a gun with the $1000 and came in ready to rob the bank?

But instead, Moore disingenuously asks the account rep if he thinks it's dangerous to give out rifles in a bank. He's purporting that that's what actually goes on, when that is simply a LIE. It made a more punchy scene, but it's still just nonsense when you clear awake the smoke.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

Quote

Don't get too excited

If his message is that guns and gun ownership are bad, but he has to lie and misrepresent guns and gun ownership in order to make it something to be opposed, how is it that there's any "underlying message" to "still believe in"?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[Samurai136 0]

Quote

Quote

Don't get too excited

If his message is that guns and gun ownership are bad, but he has to lie and misrepresent guns and gun ownership in order to make it something to be opposed, how is it that there's any "underlying message" to "still believe in"?

It's a good thing that wasn't the message of the movie.

"Why are gun advocates unaffected by such national tragedies (Columbine), and what caused our culture to reach the point where people would act in such a fashion?

Moore goes past guns to look at our culture versus those of other countries. In Germany, France and Canada, where there are also violent video games, a wealth of guns, and angry people; the per-capita death rate is only a small percentage of what it is in the United States.

So what is different here?
Moore interviews a professor and looks at how the U.S. has become a culture of fear. Even as homicides decline, the media sends the message of a far more dangerous society. After the Columbine tragedy, this fear spiraled into paranoia at schools across the country.

He looks at the welfare state, and how poverty divides people and communities, fostering a nation of lost children."

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[birdlike 0]

Quote

"Why are gun advocates unaffected by such national tragedies (Columbine), and what caused our culture to reach the point where people would act in such a fashion?

Who says that gun advocates are "unaffected" by tragedy? There's a lie right there!

Just because we don't say, "Oh, that tears it, we have to give up our guns!" does NOT mean we are discompassionate about tragedy.

Quote

Moore goes past guns to look at our culture versus those of other countries. In Germany, France and Canada, where there are also violent video games, a wealth of guns, and angry people; the per-capita death rate is only a small percentage of what it is in the United States.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/12/germany.killings.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/26/germany.shooting/

I wonder what's wrong with those Germans!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/26/china?commentpage=1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7442327.stm
http://www.thenational.ae/article/20080812/FOREIGN/893905089/1040/ART

China and Japan don't have a "gun culture" either, but no shortage of mass killings to be compassionate about.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/18/japan.international

Oh, and the gun crime in Japan occasionally takes out a MAYOR of a well-known city. I guess the Japanese people are just cold-hearted and uncaring, like us Americans.

Quote

So what is different here?
Moore interviews a professor and looks at how the U.S. has become a culture of fear. Even as homicides decline, the media sends the message of a far more dangerous society. After the Columbine tragedy, this fear spiraled into paranoia at schools across the country.

So the message is that the media is driving us to arm ourselves? I don't believe that the media have the power to make people shoot others, though.

I agree that the media helped people turn schools into Temples of Absurdity. Expelling kids over Swiss Army Knives and such is a very liberal thing to do, though. Not something that pro-gunners support.

Quote

He looks at the welfare state, and how poverty divides people and communities, fostering a nation of lost children."

Oh, yeah, now that you've made it so clear, I no longer believe that Moore was laying down an anti-gun platform.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[Samurai136 0]

Don't worry. You're still missing the point.

It isn't a 2nd amendment issue. It's about why Americans behave the way they do and what can/ should be done to change that behavior.

MM is a populist; of course he will tell you that poverty divides communities and contributes to lower levels of education. Poverty and poor education are the corner stones of controlling the masses thru propaganda and fear.

Read Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent.
If Moore attributes poor education, bad economics, and fractured communities as a cause it should be easy to determine a solution.


(note: this has nothing to do with guns or the 2nd amendment.)

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[birdlike 0]

Quote

Don't worry. You're still missing the point.

It isn't a 2nd amendment issue. It's about why Americans behave the way they do and what can/ should be done to change that behavior.

Well, then, why did he spend all that time trying to ridicule the NRA and paint them as heartless (and he had to do a severe amount of twisting and, um, "creative editing" to make it seem that Heston was giving a big F-you to the mourners in Littleton)? Why so much time spent lying about the bank's free gun offer?

The U.S. is not nearly as special in terms of violence as any of the America-bashers try to make it seem. First of all, they always find some way to creatively rule out other countries that are inarguably far more violent than ours is. Usually they give us the "of the developed nations." Whatever.

But U.N. crime surveys have shown that England and Australia have higher rates of violent crime victimization than the U.S. has. You're safer on the streets in NYC, according to the U.N., than you are in London! Go figure!

Quote

If Moore attributes poor education, bad economics, and fractured communities as a cause it should be easy to determine a solution.

Please answer this question:
Being who you are, if you began to suffer from "bad economics" in a severe way, would that or would that not be sufficient to make you willing to stick a knife or a gun in someone's face and demand her money?

See, I'm just not buyin' the whole, "The economy is making people go out and be vicious criminals" bullshit. You either have that in your makeup or you don't. I have plenty of guns, and in my day have had plenty of debt and lean times. But I never said, "Screw it, I'm gonna go out with this gun and take what's not mine from some innocent person."

I would accept your attempt to blame RAP MUSIC long before I would accept your blaming the economy for crime. You make it sound like you believe if everyone had plenty, there wouldn't be greedy criminals wanting more than plenty.

Quote

(note: this has nothing to do with guns or the 2nd amendment.)

No, but Moore's movie certainly does. By the way, he loves to compare completely disparate cities across our northern border in order to show that Americans are just special in their proclivity for violence. It's nonsense.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[Gawain 0]

The greatest irony about Moore is this: He has used the freedom of a capitalistic market to make huge money, peddling a product to those that would buy it. Even though the product disparages the very environment that allowed him to achieve such notoriety.

Don't feel so bad, you're part of that group that Moore said: "People will buy this sh*t"...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[wmw999 2,121]

The only MM movie I've seen is "Roger and Me." It was so skewed and mean-spirited that I really didn't want to watch any more. He doesn't treat the data honestly.

I probably agree with a whole lot of what he says, but not really the way he tries to convince.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)