Democrat Foreign Policy Icons

[nerdgirl 0]

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That would be awfully naive. You don't think the world was against us before Bush? That would be awfully naive.

This is not to say that Bush didn't carry it along just as the other presidents, but it certainly didn't originate with the Bush administration.

The largest change originated with the fall of the Soviet Union, which is when the balance of power shifted from a bi-polar world to the US as sole dominant superpower – or ‘hyperpower.' That was when the perception toward America's role in the world changed.

As far as measuring change in attitudes the Pew Global Attitudes Project has tried to do something akin to measuring that in their 47-nation survey, which found that international respect for America, China & Russia (what they call global powers) has declined over the last 5 years.

Between 2002 & 2007, 26 countries opinion of America became less favorable, while only 5 became more favorable. Two remained approximately the same. Additionally, "Favorable ratings of America are lower in 26 of 33 countries for which trends are available."

The Pew survey also notes that there are exceptions – opinion toward the US is largely favorable (very favorable in some cases) in African countries below North Africa. And then there are cases like Turkey – in which 83% of those surveyed like our way of doing business, but 81% dislike “American ideas about democracy.”

Remember the worldwide support for the US immediately after the attacks of September 11th when France’s Le Monde proclaimed:

“We are all Americans! We are all New Yorkers, just as surely as John F. Kennedy declared himself to be a Berliner in 1962 when he visited Berlin. Indeed, just as in the gravest moments of our own history, how can we not feel profound solidarity with those people, that country, the United States, to whom we are so close and to whom we owe our freedom, and therefore our solidarity?”

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[piper17 1]

"Republicans elect those same sort of people to positions of power"??? It wasn't only Republicans that voted for Arnold; the Republicans are in the minority in the granola state. A lot of Democrats must have voted for him as well.

Assuming you think Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry etc were more suited to the presidency that Fred Thompson or Ronald Reagan, perhaps you can point out what made them better qualified. Can you point out some of their great achievements while you are at it?

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[Shotgun 1]

Hey, there's a lot of wisdom to be learned from Winnie the Pooh. Have you ever read The Tao of Pooh?

[livendive 8]

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Billvon deflection tactic #1: Find the most outlandish examples possible and ridicule them, thereby showing the OP to be making 'much ado about nothing'.

You mean the OP that ridicules comments on Winnie the Poo and Luke Skywalker as if they weren't outlandish examples?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[mnealtx 0]

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Billvon deflection tactic #1: Find the most outlandish examples possible and ridicule them, thereby showing the OP to be making 'much ado about nothing'.

You mean the OP that ridicules comments on Winnie the Poo and Luke Skywalker as if they weren't outlandish examples?

Blues,
Dave

That too - I was speaking more toward the use in other threads than in this specific thread, however.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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And if you're saying the levels of human rights violations that have occurred during the 43rd Administration aren't the highest that have occurred since before 1865 by a very wide margin, then you're woefully misinformed.

How would you measure this, exactly? Number of people? Number of offenses? Severity of offenses?

Having trouble believing that he soundly beats the abuses south of the border during the Reagan Administration, or in Indochina during Nixon's reign, or many of the late 19th Century presidents that cleared away the Indian problem.

[mnealtx 0]

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And if you're saying the levels of human rights violations that have occurred during the 43rd Administration aren't the highest that have occurred since before 1865 by a very wide margin, then you're woefully misinformed.

How would you measure this, exactly? Number of people? Number of offenses? Severity of offenses?

Having trouble believing that he soundly beats the abuses south of the border during the Reagan Administration, or in Indochina during Nixon's reign, or many of the late 19th Century presidents that cleared away the Indian problem.

How DARE you disturb their "it's all BUSH'S fault" mantra... for shame, Sir... for shame!!!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[quade 3]

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And if you're saying the levels of human rights violations that have occurred during the 43rd Administration aren't the highest that have occurred since before 1865 by a very wide margin, then you're woefully misinformed.

How would you measure this, exactly? Number of people? Number of offenses? Severity of offenses?

Having trouble believing that he soundly beats the abuses south of the border during the Reagan Administration, or in Indochina during Nixon's reign, or many of the late 19th Century presidents that cleared away the Indian problem.

I'd measure it in civilian displacements, deaths and tortures. I know that's pretty difficult to nail down as an exact number, but still . . .

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,395]

>Assuming you think Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry etc were more
>suited to the presidency that Fred Thompson or Ronald Reagan . . .

Hey, not trying to say democrats are better than republicans (some are, some aren't.) The idea that "democrats give Hollywood too much attention" just struck me as funny, since republicans seem to love being represented by actors.

[downwardspiral 0]

From time to time I play Texas holdem on XboxLive and as soon as there is a foreigner in the room its.... "Hey what do you guys think of George Bush?"

During the late 90's when I used to frequent chat rooms and a foreigner entered the room it was.... "All you Americans do is bomb innocent people!"

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[nerdgirl 0]

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How would you measure this, exactly? Number of people? Number of offenses? Severity of offenses?

Yes.

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I'd measure it in civilian displacements, deaths and tortures. I know that's pretty difficult to nail down as an exact number, but still . . .

There are databases and quantitative/semi-quantitative analysis of incidence of human rights violations.

One excellent example, im-ever-ho, is the American Association for the Advancement of Science’s (AAAS – a professional society) Making the Case: Investigating Large Scale Human Rights Violations Using Information Systems and Data Analysis.

The is also a private company with which I am familiar, Benetech, that does such work as part of its business model. Benetech’s systematic data collection and analysis leveraging some high-tech ICT methods have had real world impacts: “We helped the UN Commission for Historical Clarification prove that genocide was committed against the indigenous population in Guatemala. We provided expert testimony before the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia that Slobodan Miloševik's defense theories were inconsistent with the data in Kosovo. Our analysis demonstrated that the civil war in Perú was much bloodier than the elites in Lima ever imagined.” They’re also working data analysis related to human rights/mass violence in Colombia, Myanmar (nee Burma), Sierra Leone, and Timor-Leste (nee East Timor).

In May, the PBS show Frontline featured a segment on Benetech’s involvement in digitizing the recovered records of police abused from the Guatemala National Police Archive project. From a techie-perspective it’s fascinating example of application of technology for a beneficial use for it was never originally imagined; from a human perspective, that such a technology would be needed is heart-breaking, but the individuals behind the effort – in the SF Bay area and in post-conflict communities – are inspirational at the same time.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Darius11 12]

Hi Mike
Honestly man you can’t even answer the question that was asked.

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When the ship (of state) goes down, it's the captain that is responsible.

Or are you admitting GWB is simply a puppet and a stooge?

Those really are your only options here. He can either be the guy in charge or the guy that's not in charge. Which is it?

It is a simple question and the answer is obvious yet you still can’t seem to accept that the person in charge is the person in charge therefor the person in charge is held responsible.

That is not a difficult concept to grasp, and I know you get it but why is there a denial?

It seems many (not just the right) suffer from too much loyalty to groups and no loyalty to facts and the obvious truth.

I don’t know but I was under the impression that we all live here together and if someone is fucking up this country there actions hurt all of us regardless of party affiliation.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[mnealtx 0]

I was deadly serious. The libs here can't make up their mind whether or not Bush is in charge or if he's Cheney's puppet.

So, yes - I have fun putting their hypocrisy right back in their face. The blame everything that goes wrong in the world on Bush or the Republicans, and their only answer when they're shown that the Dems are just as bad is "CDIF! CDIF!".

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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There are databases and quantitative/semi-quantitative analysis of incidence of human rights violations.

But those have 3 levels of fuzziness.

1) definition of human rights violations - are the hundreds of thousands of deaths asserted as happening in Iraq over the past 17 years the fault of the US leaders, or Saddam, or neither? Are they violations only by deliberate action, rather than bad outcomes that are the indirect consequences of the action?

2) data accuracy affected by frame of reference.
and
3) data accuracy affected by time. There are people dedicated to observation/recording of human rights violations now. The Turks deny anything happened to the Armenians, the Japanese still deny Nanking.

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Number versus severity. Is 1 mil affected Iraqis (out of 27M) worse than killing half of a 5000 member Indian tribe, and then relocating the remainder to some spit of desert land? Iraq lives on, the tribe is dead.

I think Quade made his declaration emotionally, not rationally, insisting that Shrub is the worst of the last 140 years.

[Darius11 12]

Mike I can’t deny that there are shit heads on the right and left. I wouldn’t want to deny it because it is true.
We have hypocrites on both sides, and most politicians are scum.

I guess I am stuck in the middle I agree with some views on both sides and not all views.

I guess if Cheney was the puppet master I still would blame GWB. Not because I hate the guy but because it is his responsibility to make or try to make the right decision. If he allowed himself to be manipulated then it is still his weakness that we all suffer for.


I guess I wish we didn’t have labels or groups that we felt like we need to protect or stand by. I believe we would all benefit if we worked together and didn’t feel like every criticism (true ones) is an attack on who we are or what we stand for.

I am knew here (to being a citizen of a democratic country) was it always like this Rep. Vs. Dems? (sorry thats a knew thread i guess)

We all live in the same place. I guess I don’t get it and Mike I know its not just you or the people who lean to the right.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[tbrown 26]

Personally, I prefer Yosemite Sam, he's more of the Andy Jacksonian type Democrat.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !