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freeflybella

Anti-spanking letter

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< Tosses up the non-sequitor, trying to re-direct-to-avoid-issue flag >

Whether I have 1 kid, 12, or none is not relevant to unsubstantiated unilateral assertions. Whether I spank them all or hug them is also not relevant.

The issue is the unsubstantiated causality that you claimed.

Again,

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The most screwed up kids are the ones that never got one.



Is that your subjective, personal opinion, which may be fine for you? Or do you have some evidence to support that all-encompassing, definitive assertion? ... because all that's needed to prove false is one "screwed up kid" who was spanked. Remember the plural of anecdote is not data.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

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Why aren't you allowed to slap the kids you work with?

is that a serious question:|



It was a facetious question.

In your opinion, a good slap might save some of the kids from falling into the juvenile justice system. Why then, aren't you able to employ that method of discipline?

edited: I guess a more straightforward question would be, why aren't you and peregrinerose (and other child care workers) not legally allowed to use a very highly endorsed "parenting" tool? Why are parents allowed to slap their kids but people hired to care for kids not?

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

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Why aren't you allowed to slap the kids you work with?

is that a serious question:|



It was a facetious question.

In your opinion, a good slap might save some of the kids from falling into the juvenile justice system. Why then, aren't you able to employ that method of discipline?

edited: I guess a more straightforward question would be, why aren't you and peregrinerose (and other child care workers) not legally allowed to use a very highly endorsed "parenting" tool? Why are parents allowed to slap their kids but people hired to care for kids not?


Because they are not my progeny and i should actually NOT be the one trying to instill discipline in them, that SHOULD be the role of their parents. Unfortunately that is very often not the case with my cohorts
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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Why aren't you allowed to slap the kids you work with?

is that a serious question:|



It was a facetious question.

In your opinion, a good slap might save some of the kids from falling into the juvenile justice system. Why then, aren't you able to employ that method of discipline?

edited: I guess a more straightforward question would be, why aren't you and peregrinerose (and other child care workers) not legally allowed to use a very highly endorsed "parenting" tool? Why are parents allowed to slap their kids but people hired to care for kids not?



As an Advocate of Occasionally Spanking a child when other methods have failed, I can say without a doubt that a Teacher or social worker doing the same thing would be completely unacceptable.

They do not have the same bond and understanding of the child that the parent should have. Also it is NOT their job to raise my Child. It is MY responsibility to raise the child.

Plain and simply, It is NOT their Job to be a parent.

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Why aren't you allowed to slap the kids you work with?

is that a serious question:|



It was a facetious question.

In your opinion, a good slap might save some of the kids from falling into the juvenile justice system. Why then, aren't you able to employ that method of discipline?

edited: I guess a more straightforward question would be, why aren't you and peregrinerose (and other child care workers) not legally allowed to use a very highly endorsed "parenting" tool? Why are parents allowed to slap their kids but people hired to care for kids not?



As an Advocate of Occasionally Spanking a child when other methods have failed, I can say without a doubt that a Teacher or social worker doing the same thing would be completely unacceptable.

They do not have the same bond and understanding of the child that the parent should have. Also it is NOT their job to raise my Child. It is MY responsibility to raise the child.

Plain and simply, It is NOT their Job to be a parent.



It IS the job of a Foster parent to act as a parent. And spanking by teachers is LEGAL in 23 states.

I just find it odd that a "bond and understanding" is the criteria for allowing spanking.

Anyway, good discussion!

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

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I believe that Foster Parents should have the exact same rights as Natural Parents.

I said I didn’t think Teachers or social workers should have to Spank children. Disciplining the child should be the Parents job (Foster or otherwise). If the parent is NOT doing their job, then the Social Workers and Teacher should step in and have the child put into a home where they can get Attention and Discipline they need.

I noticed that you said your child was still very young. I respect your opinion on this and had very much the same opinion when my daughter was at the same age. I would be very curious to see if your opinion on this changes in a few years.

At some point your child WILL start testing their boundaries with you. They WILL do things they know they should not do. Sometime they will do this just to see what will happen. Natural curiosity. It is not about teaching right from wrong at that point, that job is already done. If you choose to coddle them and just try to talk to them during these tough times, They will know they can walk all over you and pretty much do as they please. These times I think are some of the most critical for a parent. How a parent handles these situations I think will have more effect on the child than most anything.

Hitting them out of frustration or anger is always wrong in my opinion. But sometimes for some children, Scolding or time out just won’t work.

Another draw back to negotiating with children is they will come to expect “Dialogue” whenever you tell them to do something. There may come a time when “STOP”, “DON’T” or otherwise when Immediate Obedience is critical to their safety.

In a perfect world we would always have time to sit and explain everything to a child right then and there. Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world. It is critical that a child understand when you speak, They should FIRST Obey and then Ask questions if they don’t understand.

And yes, I am very much enjoying this discussion and am very happy that people with differing opinions can respect each others opinion to have a meaningful discussion without the typical Internet chest thumping.

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Ummm what he said, pretty much verbatim.
As a teacher we have a thing called "parentus nonlocus" act as a parent in their absence, this does not extend to physical punishment, or verbal abuse.
We have limited avenues to get compliance from kids. MOST time they will come around in their own way, but occasionally they just don't want to do the right thing.
In their often limited understanding of the consequences they choose to do the wrong thing.

I have a saying i use with parents when talking about some of the issues the kids deal with.
"You cannot save your face and you arse at the same time."
Kids especially adolescent kids will almost invariably choose to SAVE FACE (their idea of it) particularly in front of their peers.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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Just 3 things and I'll let it rest.

Number one, maybe you don't remember just how much testing of boundaries happens at 2 and 3? ;)

Number two, I totally agree that as parents we have a wide and varied tool chest when it comes to disciplining (teaching) and raising our children.

Finally, I still think you're a non-spanker and can't for the life of me figure out why you're such a staunch proponent. Maybe in your view, it's all about not limiting what other parents might "need" at any given time.

But the preponderance of research shows not only that spanking doesn't work well as a disciplinary tool but that in some cases it's harmful and leads to abuse.

I'd suspect, although I have no proof to back it up, that most parents who spank limitedly claim it's effectiveness because there are other techniques employed simultaneously. And that those parents who spank regularly and continuously do much more damage to their children and the relationship they have with them than they'll ever know.

:)

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

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Finally, I still think you're a non-spanker and can't for the life of me figure out why you're such a staunch proponent.

Well, I swatted my son maybe a half-dozen times between the ages of about 4 and 8. The idea was to get his attention, and very quickly. I'd go on the side of a swat is a tool that should remain in a parent's arsenal, along with a whole lot of other tools.

I'd also have to say that it should be a rarely used tool. My son is 24 now and a wonderful man, so any future swats are unlikely to come from me :D.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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About foster/adoptive parents, it's a very different animal than natural parents.

Natural parents pop out a kid and have them from day one. Theoretically the child is nurtured and if they do something that warrants a swat on the ass, they know that that's all there is to it... a swat on the butt, attention is focused, end of story. Typically spanking stops when the child is old enough to reason. I can't imagine spanking a 14 year old would be effective for anything at all, but a swat on the ass of a 2 year old who can't reason yet is totally different.

Now factor in adoptive/foster parents. We don't know where these kids came from or what they've been through other than what the social workers are able to tell us. 100% of the kids have been neglected, 85% have been sexually abused, and I don't know the exact stats for emotional/physical abuse, but they are also very high. They don't know what a 'safe' environment is, they only know how to build walls, be defensive, and that the world is an incredibly unfriendly place. A swat on the ass to a child coming from that background only re-enforces that they are unlovable and alone, because they can't differentiate a spanking from the abuse they've received in the past.

I see no problem with the occasional butt-swat in most birth families, in very young children who can't reason, maybe up to age 5-6 when consequences can be more age appropriate and effective. If I had given birth, that's probably one tool I'd use in early childhood... not one I'd use frequently, but it would be an option.

However, I'm also an adult survivor of a severely abusive childhood...emotional, sexual, physical. My mother broke so many wooden spoons on my ass that my father made a large plywood paddle to use instead. I would be spanked so hard that sitting down was impossible, there were welts and cuts on my butt constantly, and this went on from as long as I can remember until I left home at 17. I can tell you that those beatings stay with you. My husband was pissed once (not at me, just in general) and threw a road map atlas to vent. It went in my general direction, but again, not at me, and I completely lost it. In a fraction of a second, I was on the floor, fetal, crying, and shaking like a leaf. And I was probably 29 or 30 when this happened. I'm an adult, I can rationalize his intent and that my marriage is good and safe and he'd never hurt me, but for a few minutes, I was a little kid again.... that's the kind of thing that foster kids/adoptive kids can go through with spanking.

The same with school teachers or professionals that work with kids... they don't know what goes on in the child's home, so they could be very well unintentionally doing the same thing.

I don't know where the line is drawn between spanking and abuse. I believe it's in part age related, pain related (the spanking should sting a little, but not leave a hand print or welt), and intention related (it should never be done out of parental anger). I believe it's a dead last resort for kids that are born to you. I also believe that things that happen to kids really can mess with them as adults, and it's better to have discussions like this on here and really think about the consequences of actions. It's probably even better to really think these things through prior to having children so that decisions aren't made in the heat of a frustrating moment that could be regretted later.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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Finally, I still think you're a non-spanker and can't for the life of me figure out why you're such a staunch proponent.

Well, I swatted my son maybe a half-dozen times between the ages of about 4 and 8. The idea was to get his attention, and very quickly. I'd go on the side of a swat is a tool that should remain in a parent's arsenal, along with a whole lot of other tools.

I'd also have to say that it should be a rarely used tool. My son is 24 now and a wonderful man, so any future swats are unlikely to come from me :D.

Wendy W.

and I'll bet if you threatened to swat him today he'd still back down :D:D
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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I'd go on the side of a swat is a tool that should remain in a parent's arsenal, along with a whole lot of other tools.



Yep - its a tool, much like 'time outs' and 'reasoning' are.

My DD has taken to running into the street and parking lots lately. She was almost hit by a car last week - she's amazingly fast for a kid with CP :P

We tried 'reasoning' with her for a few weeks and doing the whole 'time out' thing (which usually works), but hell, she's 27 months, she doesn't get it. Finally, after she was nearly hit, Dad took it upon himself to swat her legs. She learned quickly to not do that again. Did she learn "cars are dangerous!" - no, she learned "if I do that again Mom and Dad are going to get mad" and at this stage in her life its much more effective, she doesn't understand cars are dangerous. At her age there is only one thing in her world her - and mom and dad are the most constant objects in that world, a car isn't.

There are a multitude of different disciplinary actions and some are suited for some situations and others are not. Safety is a big reason to use the fastest/most effective disciplinary tool in your 'tool box'.

We don't label ourselves spankers - we label ourselves as parents who happen to be open to various forms of discipline to command respect (and respect only).

I take offense at the 'lazy parents' comment because with everything we have been through in her 2 years we are anything BUT lazy - she is our entire world (to the point where her therapy appointments mean we have no time for a life, seriously) and we do everything we can to keep her safe and ensure she is growing into a happy, healthy, respectful person, even if that means physical discipline.
Arianna Frances

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say what you want most kids need a good old spanking every now and then. Never hurt me and never truly hurt anyone I know. This is not abuse, it is tool, done right it works. The most screwed up kids are the ones that never got one.



+2
"A man only gets in life what he is believing for, nothing more and nothing less" Kenneth Hagen

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Let me throw a few things out there first.
First, correlation does not equal cause. Point being that if a study shows that a bunch of kids are "damaged" and that the majority received spankings, that doesn't mean that spanking was the cause, only that they correlate.
Could it not be that the problem is not that they are spanked but that the spankings are distributed for minor problems, inconsistantly, unlovingly, and/or out of anger?
Telling a kid not to do something or you will take immediate action five times before you actually take action, then feel bad and give them what they want is what doesn't work! Kids are not stupid!
I am a product, not of only spankings, but of spankins which were done in love and it was always made very clear why I recieved the spanking. Interestingly my brother almost never got spankings. Was this favoritism? Or maybe because I liked time out so then I could be alone and not bothered by my brothers, where as my older brother couldn't stand it. If they gave me jobs to do that wasn't so bad as I like working and accomplishing things, fixing things. I wasn't a trouble but thats cause I knew what was coming when I did something wrong, so I didn't do it. In fact I only remember 2 spankings for this reason. My teachers didn't keep me in line and teach me right from wrong.....my parents did (the teachers are there to teach the sciences and arts and nothing more. It is the parents job to make the kids behave.) I am greatful for the way they raised me and I can only hope to do such a good job with mine someday.
Lets also remember that not all psychologist agree that spanking results in problems, when carried out properly.....and really, is it that hard to tell when it is not being carried out properly? or to tell who really is getting what they want and in control of the situation? Is it really so hard to love your child enough to do what it takes to help them to grow up with the proper knowledge for life? or are many to selfish to sacrifice there feelings in order to do the right thing for thier kids? It is painful for a parent, who loves thier child, to properly carry out punishment, but far to many are unwilling to go through this pain for the ultimate good of thier child. They simply choose to ignore so they don't have to deal with the emotion of punishing thier children. They blame teachers, society, and everything else but themselves for failure.

I will leave you with a few more things:
According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, about 90 percent of U.S. parents spank, and about 59 percent of pediatricians in a 1992 survey said they support the practice. According to the academy, effective discipline has three key components: first, a loving, supportive relationship between parent and child; second, use of positive reinforcement when children behave well; and third, use of punishment when children misbehave.
According to the National Institute for Healthcare Research, more than 80 percent of the professional publications attacking spanking were reviews and commentaries, rather than quantitative research. When analyzing the small portion of quantitative studies that included spanking, more than 90 percent of these studies lumped together mild forms of spanking with severe forms of physical abuse without discussing why they did so. Thus, the professional organizations which advocated outlawing spanking evidently made their decisions without the benefit of the facts. Mild spanking and severe child abuse are not the same thing.
According to Physician magazine, spanking should be used selectively for clear, deliberate misbehavior, especially a child's persistent defiance of a parent. It should be used only when the child receives at least as much praise for good behavior as correction for problem behavior. Verbal correction, time out and logical consequences should be used initially, followed by spanking when noncompliance persists. Only a parent should administer a spanking, not another person. Spanking should never be administered on impulse or when a parent is out of control. Parents sometimes need a time out too. Spanking is inappropriate before 15 months of age, should be less necessary after 6 years, and rarely, if ever, used after 10 years of age. Spanking should always be administered in private. Appropriate spanking only leaves temporary redness of skin, and never bruises or injures. Spanking works, but must be used thoughtfully and carefully in conjunction with other disciplinary measures.

Proverbs 23:12Apply your heart to discipline
And your ears to words of knowledge.
13Do not hold back discipline from the child,
Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.
14You shall strike him with the rod
And rescue his soul from hell.

Proverbs 13:24He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

Finally, a quote from me when I was young (so young I don't actually remember it.)
After watching a child throw a fit in a store I told my parents, "His parents do love him." They asked how I knew that. I said, "because if they loved him they would spank him."

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Also, although the letter is well articulated, it contains much false information concerning what is taught in the bible as well as many false assumptions. Read the above quotes from the bible. The old testament actually says that disobedient children shall be stoned infront of everyone as an example. We obviously don't follow the old testament today.
God and Jesus are also very clear regarding love and punishment. Death in hell being the only outcome of disobidience. This is extreme punishment!
Remember, God said that he used to "wink at such inocents, but now commands all to repent."

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Let me throw a few things out there first.
First, correlation does not equal cause. Point being that if a study shows that a bunch of kids are "damaged" and that the majority received spankings, that doesn't mean that spanking was the cause, only that they correlate.



True. But in the end, if you have a bunch of damaged kids either they got that way from spanking or the spankings didn't work.

Quote


Telling a kid not to do something or you will take immediate action five times before you actually take action, then feel bad and give them what they want is what doesn't work!



Why is the opposite of spanking inconsistent consequences? Telling a kid to do something or he'll receive consequences and then following through with them does work.

Quote


I am a product, not of only spankings, but of spankins which were done in love and it was always made very clear why I recieved the spanking. Interestingly my brother almost never got spankings. Was this favoritism? Or maybe because I liked time out so then I could be alone and not bothered by my brothers, where as my older brother couldn't stand it. If they gave me jobs to do that wasn't so bad as I like working and accomplishing things, fixing things. I wasn't a trouble but thats cause I knew what was coming when I did something wrong, so I didn't do it. In fact I only remember 2 spankings for this reason. My teachers didn't keep me in line and teach me right from wrong.....my parents did (the teachers are there to teach the sciences and arts and nothing more. It is the parents job to make the kids behave.) I am greatful for the way they raised me and I can only hope to do such a good job with mine someday.



Correlation does not equal cause. Your words.

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Lets also remember that not all psychologist agree that spanking results in problems, when carried out properly...



The overwhelming majority of studies show that spanking is not an effective form of discipline. You may have been spanked - but you may have turned out fine in spite of being spanked. As have many of the proponents on this thread.

Quote

and really, is it that hard to tell when it is not being carried out properly?



What kind of question is this? Close to 900,000 children per year are victims of substantiated abuse (physical, emotional and neglect). 72% at the hands of their parents. Apparently their parents are having a hard time figuring something out.

Quote

Is it really so hard to love your child enough to do what it takes to help them to grow up with the proper knowledge for life? or are many to selfish to sacrifice there feelings in order to do the right thing for thier kids? It is painful for a parent, who loves thier child, to properly carry out punishment, but far to many are unwilling to go through this pain for the ultimate good of thier child.



It's painful for the parent, it's ineffective for the child, may cause harm to the child and the parent/child bond...call me crazy!

Quote

They simply choose to ignore so they don't have to deal with the emotion of punishing thier children. They blame teachers, society, and everything else but themselves for failure.



Discipline does NOT equal punishment. Discipline is teaching. The true hard work is putting in the time to be an example of right and wrong, having the patience and attention to provide consistent guidance and consequences and maintaining a loving environment for the child to test boundaries, to explore independence while becoming a responsible and compassionate person.

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I will leave you with a few more things:



Give me time, I'll google some replies...

Quote

They asked how I knew that. I said, "because if they loved him they would spank him."



I actually think that's very very sad.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

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And what references do you have for all of your statements of fact?

Also, taking each sentence and commenting on them is not all that effective in that ultimately you have taken thing out of context rather than taking all the information as a whole and applying it likewise.

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Let me throw a few things out there first.
First, correlation does not equal cause. Point being that if a study shows that a bunch of kids are "damaged" and that the majority received spankings, that doesn't mean that spanking was the cause, only that they correlate.
Could it not be that the problem is not that they are spanked but that the spankings are distributed for minor problems, inconsistantly, unlovingly, and/or out of anger?
Telling a kid not to do something or you will take immediate action five times before you actually take action, then feel bad and give them what they want is what doesn't work! Kids are not stupid!
I am a product, not of only spankings, but of spankins which were done in love and it was always made very clear why I recieved the spanking. Interestingly my brother almost never got spankings. Was this favoritism? Or maybe because I liked time out so then I could be alone and not bothered by my brothers, where as my older brother couldn't stand it. If they gave me jobs to do that wasn't so bad as I like working and accomplishing things, fixing things. I wasn't a trouble but thats cause I knew what was coming when I did something wrong, so I didn't do it. In fact I only remember 2 spankings for this reason. My teachers didn't keep me in line and teach me right from wrong.....my parents did (the teachers are there to teach the sciences and arts and nothing more. It is the parents job to make the kids behave.) I am greatful for the way they raised me and I can only hope to do such a good job with mine someday.
Lets also remember that not all psychologist agree that spanking results in problems, when carried out properly.....and really, is it that hard to tell when it is not being carried out properly? or to tell who really is getting what they want and in control of the situation? Is it really so hard to love your child enough to do what it takes to help them to grow up with the proper knowledge for life? or are many to selfish to sacrifice there feelings in order to do the right thing for thier kids? It is painful for a parent, who loves thier child, to properly carry out punishment, but far to many are unwilling to go through this pain for the ultimate good of thier child. They simply choose to ignore so they don't have to deal with the emotion of punishing thier children. They blame teachers, society, and everything else but themselves for failure.

I will leave you with a few more things:
According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, about 90 percent of U.S. parents spank, and about 59 percent of pediatricians in a 1992 survey said they support the practice. According to the academy, effective discipline has three key components: first, a loving, supportive relationship between parent and child; second, use of positive reinforcement when children behave well; and third, use of punishment when children misbehave.
According to the National Institute for Healthcare Research, more than 80 percent of the professional publications attacking spanking were reviews and commentaries, rather than quantitative research. When analyzing the small portion of quantitative studies that included spanking, more than 90 percent of these studies lumped together mild forms of spanking with severe forms of physical abuse without discussing why they did so. Thus, the professional organizations which advocated outlawing spanking evidently made their decisions without the benefit of the facts. Mild spanking and severe child abuse are not the same thing.
According to Physician magazine, spanking should be used selectively for clear, deliberate misbehavior, especially a child's persistent defiance of a parent. It should be used only when the child receives at least as much praise for good behavior as correction for problem behavior. Verbal correction, time out and logical consequences should be used initially, followed by spanking when noncompliance persists. Only a parent should administer a spanking, not another person. Spanking should never be administered on impulse or when a parent is out of control. Parents sometimes need a time out too. Spanking is inappropriate before 15 months of age, should be less necessary after 6 years, and rarely, if ever, used after 10 years of age. Spanking should always be administered in private. Appropriate spanking only leaves temporary redness of skin, and never bruises or injures. Spanking works, but must be used thoughtfully and carefully in conjunction with other disciplinary measures.

Proverbs 23:12Apply your heart to discipline
And your ears to words of knowledge.
13Do not hold back discipline from the child,
Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.
14You shall strike him with the rod
And rescue his soul from hell.

Proverbs 13:24He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

Finally, a quote from me when I was young (so young I don't actually remember it.)
After watching a child throw a fit in a store I told my parents, "His parents do love him." They asked how I knew that. I said, "because if they loved him they would spank him."


+1

I wish I could be that articulate with words. Such things as this post (not your response) frustrate me to no end. Thanks for your response. Not only is it educating, but it is also an eye opener when not taken out of context. Well done!:)

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The overwhelming majority of studies show that spanking is not an effective form of discipline. You may have been spanked - but you may have turned out fine in spite of being spanked. As have many of the proponents on this thread.



Spanking has been the preferred and effective method of parental discipline for 1000`s of years. Like any tool it can and has been abused by some. That does not mean that the tool itself is ineffective.

Studies can be created to show whatever the people funding the study want it to show.

I truly hope you do not take what I am about to say the wrong way.. But to me you come across a little like the 100 Jump Wonder.
You have a very young child. (About the 100 Jump stage in parenting) and seem to be eager to share what you have learned..

Find me someone that has raised 3 or 4 Kids to adulthood and had them turn out to be well adjusted and productive members of society. I think you will the find vast majority of these people would fully support and endorse Properly applied spanking regardless what any Study said.

Quote

Discipline is teaching. The true hard work is putting in the time to be an example of right and wrong



I disagree. Discipline is what you do when you have taught Right from Wrong and your child chooses to do what they already knew to be wrong. THAT is when discipline is necessary. You told them not to do it, They Knew they were not supposed to do it, they knew why they were not supposed to do it and they did it anyway.

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What a load of tripe.
The Bible is no different than statistical studies in that if you want to set up an idea and then creatively shape the stats to support your theory, it is do-able. The Bible is clear that DISCIPLINE IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF EVERY PARENT.
So, take that mandate and shape your parenting and life to IT, not the other way around.
If having a child do pushups works better than spanking (certainly did on my boys) then use that method of discipline, but don't twist and twist and twist on Scripture to make it say what you WANT it to rather than what it says.
The Bible is also clear that people who add to or subtract from the Scriptures and spread that opinion/misinformation as the word of God have a very real problem with God come the judgement day.

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

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100 jump wonder? I won't take offense at that. But it's like me saying you come off as a sky god - just because you've managed to stay alive for 2000 jumps (over 18 years) doesn't make you an expert.

Either way, neither of those analogies apply really.

I liked the discussion in the women's forum - not so much over here. :)

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

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say what you want most kids need a good old spanking every now and then. Never hurt me and never truly hurt anyone I know. This is not abuse, it is tool, done right it works. The most screwed up kids are the ones that never got one.



Please support your assertion.
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