In Miami, Spanish Becoming Primary Language

[billvon 2,396]

>You don't believe it wastes any resources for the government to have
>to print material, hire employees, etc... in multiple languages verse a
>single language?

The reason governments do it is to SAVE money. By having a bilingual form (which costs as much to print as an english form) they don't have to

a) have a translator standing by on the phone
b) prosecute the guy for whatever he didn't do that requires the form

From my dealing with the public, you would save far, far more money by outlawing idiocy than by outlawing any languages.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I'm not sure exactly how you'd measure the value of bilingualism in a cost-benefit sort of way, but I'd be suprised if it turned out to be a waste.

The problem here is really about the costs of not being bilingual - the English speakers in Miami who can't speak Spanish, and the Spanish only speaking who are effectively useless to society outside of the spanish enclaves. The reason many parents prevented their kids from speaking anything but English was to ensure that they could travel elsewhere in America to study or work.

50 years from now, it wouldn't surprise me to see the country as effectively bilingual in English and Spanish (with dozens of little Saigons and Chinatowns and others). But it may resemble the division of wealth seen in South Africa's apartheid because in the current environment, not speaking English puts one at a serious economic disadvantage.

Personally speaking, if Spanish becomes the most know language to succeed, I'll do fine. I feared it was going to be Mandarin, which is so much harder to learn to speak or read. Not helping is that most of my friends are Catonese speakers.

[Amazon 7]

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So what about those of us who speak French as a 2nd language? Doesn't that count as bi-lingual?

duh

I would think that would be even more confusing en Miami.

You can always go hang out in Quebec

[Butters 0]

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Monolingual societies become insular, cannot adapt easily to change and are not as competitive on the world scene.

Insular, adapt easily to change, competitive on the world scene ... those are based more on culture, government, religion, etc... not language.

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Typically they have a distorted view of the rest of the world because they are not as able to communicate with cultures different than their own.

Once again, those are based more on culture, government, religion, etc... not language.

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It's also somewhat indicative of people who aren't very smart, and thus ends up with that stigma attached to it.

Really? This says more about you than about people who are monolingual.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Butters 0]

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a) have a translator standing by on the phone

They do have to have a translator standing by on the phone to describe the form. Still a loss ...

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b) prosecute the guy for whatever he didn't do that requires the form

They do have to prosecute the guy for whatever he did do because of a communication issue. Still a loss ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[LongWayToFall 0]

Speak Spanish wherever you want, its a free country and nobody is going to stop you. But if you come to this country, and don't speak a single lick of English, then you need to learn or get the fuck out. A fireman runs into your home, and says "your house is on fire, leave now" or you are driving down the road and cannot understand the signs that say "slow down, accident ahead" or you need to find a hospital because your family member is spilling guts all over the inside of your car but you can't understand the directions some guy is giving you, and they die. The list goes on and on, we need to have a universal method of communicating in America, that method is English. English is also spoken in every country on the planet, if they have an airport, because that is the universal language that was chosen for tower controllers. I'm not saying the whole world should speak English, far from it. But if you move to a country, you need to be able to understand the language, for your own sake and the sake of others.

[marcandalysse 0]

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the Spanish only speaking who are effectively useless to society outside of the spanish enclaves

useless to society? tell that to the 4 guys working on my landscaping today, the 3 different crews who replaced my roof last week, the cook and the dishwasher in the restaurant I went to tonite, the hospital workers who cleaned my room a few weeks ago.....must I list any more?

I also remember a Miami friend bitching about how only bilingual folks were getting jobs....that was in 1972!

And those roofers and landscapers love when I croak out a few sentences in their language and respect me a lot for it....

welcome to the global economy pal....I sure don't feel your gringo pain....
PS yeah....time to learn chinese!

hasta la vista baby!
marc

"The reason angels can fly is that they take themselves so lightly." --GK Chesterton

[billvon 2,396]

>Insular, adapt easily to change, competitive on the world scene ...
>those are based more on culture, government, religion, etc... not
>language.

Take two people. One speaks spanish and english, one only english. Assign them to open a maquiladora operation in Tijuana. Which one will be able to do a better job at being competitive on the world scene?

>Once again, those are based more on culture, government, religion,
>etc... not language.

Nope. The ability to communicate with someone else has almost nothing to do with whether they have the same religion as you - but it has a great deal to do with you speaking the same language.

Imagine you are trying to communicate with a zarma woman who speaks only zarma but is christian, and an iraqi muslim who speaks english well. Let's say you have to communicate "we have to get on the next train out of here." Which one will you find it easier to get that concept across to?

>Really?

Yes. From Effect of Bilingualism on Intelligence, a study of Tamil children:
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Levels of second language proficiency and verbal intelligence are interdependent. When children have a higher level of second language proficiency, they perform better on verbal intelligence.
==========

Bilingualism May Keep the Mind Young
By Jennifer Warner
WebMD Medical News
Reviewed by Brunilda Nazario, MD

June 14, 2004 -- Two languages may be better than one when it comes to keeping the mind young. A new study shows that being fluent in two languages may help prevent some of the effects of aging on brain function.

Researchers found that people who were bilingual most of their lives were better able to stay focused on a task amidst a rapidly changing environment compared with people who only spoke one language.

The ability to keep one's attention on a task is known as fluid intelligence, and it is one of the first aspects of brain function to deteriorate as people get older.
============

[kelpdiver 2]

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the Spanish only speaking who are effectively useless to society outside of the spanish enclaves

useless to society? tell that to the 4 guys working on my landscaping today, the 3 different crews who replaced my roof last week, the cook and the dishwasher in the restaurant I went to tonite, the hospital workers who cleaned my room a few weeks ago.....must I list any more?

Did you read my post? Your reply supports it rather well. You listed several menial jobs, plus a few semi skilled jobs (cooking fajitas no, paella perhaps). If that's the best that non English speakers can do, quite a few of them are being wasted on the bottom rung of the service sector. It's especially bad if they're all employees (or worse, day laborers picked up next to Home Depot) rather than owners of the cleaning or landscaping service. Those jobs aren't paying livable wages.

Is it possible to get a secondary degree in this country without speaking English? Open question - I don't know, but I suspect there are few to no options.

[Erroll 49]

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But it may resemble the division of wealth seen in South Africa's apartheid because in the current environment, not speaking English puts one at a serious economic disadvantage.

We now have eleven official languages, and English is still the language of choice for Commerce and Industry.

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South Africa is one of the world's most multi-lingual and culturally diverse nations, lying second to India.

The official languages are English, Afrikaans, isiNdebele (Ndebele), Sesotho sa Leboa (Northern Sotho), Sesotho (Southern Sotho), siSwati, Xitsonga (Tsonga), Setswana (Tswana), TshiVenda (Venda), isiXhosa (Xhosa) and isiZulu (Zulu).
The cultural diversity of South Africa owes much to it being the hub of southern Africa and numerous other languages are spoken here in addition to the official languages.

[normiss 622]

Wah bu dong!

[Butters 0]

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Take two people. One speaks spanish and english, one only english. Assign them to open a maquiladora operation in Tijuana. Which one will be able to do a better job at being competitive on the world scene?

We aren't talking about opening an operation in another country though ... why should it be as difficult to open an operation in America as opening an operation in Mexico for an American citizen?

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Nope. The ability to communicate with someone else has almost nothing to do with whether they have the same religion as you - but it has a great deal to do with you speaking the same language.

So you agree that the ability to communicate depends on speaking the same language.

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Yes. From Effect of Bilingualism on Intelligence, a study of Tamil children:
==========
Levels of second language proficiency and verbal intelligence are interdependent. When children have a higher level of second language proficiency, they perform better on verbal intelligence.
==========

Bilingualism May Keep the Mind Young
By Jennifer Warner
WebMD Medical News
Reviewed by Brunilda Nazario, MD

June 14, 2004 -- Two languages may be better than one when it comes to keeping the mind young. A new study shows that being fluent in two languages may help prevent some of the effects of aging on brain function.

Researchers found that people who were bilingual most of their lives were better able to stay focused on a task amidst a rapidly changing environment compared with people who only spoke one language.

The ability to keep one's attention on a task is known as fluid intelligence, and it is one of the first aspects of brain function to deteriorate as people get older.
============

Do you have the details of the study? Do you have more studies that concluded the same thing?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[BillyVance 34]

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Speak Spanish wherever you want, its a free country and nobody is going to stop you. But if you come to this country, and don't speak a single lick of English, then you need to learn or get the fuck out. A fireman runs into your home, and says "your house is on fire, leave now" or you are driving down the road and cannot understand the signs that say "slow down, accident ahead" or you need to find a hospital because your family member is spilling guts all over the inside of your car but you can't understand the directions some guy is giving you, and they die. The list goes on and on, we need to have a universal method of communicating in America, that method is English. English is also spoken in every country on the planet, if they have an airport, because that is the universal language that was chosen for tower controllers. I'm not saying the whole world should speak English, far from it. But if you move to a country, you need to be able to understand the language, for your own sake and the sake of others.

I couldn't have said it any better. It's always good for us to learn another language but for the reasons you mentioned, anybody immigrating here needs to learn English.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Frenchy68 0]

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anybody immigrating here needs to learn English

I am a big proponent of learning foreign languages, and I would agree with the "need" part in this case. However, it is definitely not a "must". The founding fathers were smart enough to leave room in the constitution for the "unknown" the future brings along, including not imposing an official language, or religion, etc... Evolution is much like free market economy. Let it be, and it will sort things out by itself. The whole "Do it my way or get the fuck out" attitude only survives in exotic countries such as North Korea, Myanmar, and the likes.
Whatever you bitch and moan about, the only sure thing is that... the Lakers will win it all at the end!

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Butters 0]

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The founding fathers were smart enough to leave room in the constitution for the "unknown" the future brings along ...

Or dumb enough ... all a matter of perspective.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[billvon 2,396]

>We aren't talking about opening an operation in another country though . . .

I was. It's part of the landscape for many US companies nowadays.

>why should it be as difficult to open an operation in America as opening
>an operation in Mexico for an American citizen?

For some it is, for some it isn't. For those who are good at such things, lucrative employment awaits.

[kallend 1,623]

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The founding fathers were smart enough to leave room in the constitution for the "unknown" the future brings along ...

Or dumb enough ... all a matter of perspective.

Well, if I had to choose between you and the founding fathers for wisdom, I think they have it locked up.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Butters 0]

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The founding fathers were smart enough to leave room in the constitution for the "unknown" the future brings along ...

Or dumb enough ... all a matter of perspective.

Well, if I had to choose between you and the founding fathers for wisdom, I think they have it locked up.

As always, you disguise a personal attack and fail to comment on the topic ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[kelpdiver 2]

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The founding fathers were smart enough to leave room in the constitution for the "unknown" the future brings along ...

Or dumb enough ... all a matter of perspective.

At that time, it was quite common for insular communities to be formed on the continent, and many were not English. They were more self sufficient then, so the need for a single language wouldn't be evident.

[LongWayToFall 0]

How did I know that a frenchy would support learning a broad language base. You guys need to have a daily update on which country is most likely to invade you guys and take over, so you can be sure to learn as much of the lingo as possible.

[jenfly00 0]

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So what about those of us who speak French as a 2nd language? Doesn't that count as bi-lingual?

duh

I would think that would be even more confusing en Miami.

You can always go hang out in Quebec

Nah, he can come down to Hallendale or Hollywood beach.

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[crozby 0]

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I'm not saying the whole world should speak English, far from it. But if you move to a country, you need to be able to understand the language, for your own sake and the sake of others.

Like the the hundred and fifty thousand or so US troops in Iraq can speak Arabic?

[LongWayToFall 0]

Our military needs to be able to act quickly, and I doubt every soldier is going to learn arabic within a reasonable time frame. Besides, our troops are in groups that have translators with them to be able figure out what the situation is, not by themselves where they might be missing critical information because of the language barrier. There is a big difference between going to a country without the intension of living the rest of your life there, and with it.

[Amazon 7]

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Our military needs to be able to act quickly, and I doubt every soldier is going to learn arabic within a reasonable time frame. Besides, our troops are in groups that have translators with them to be able figure out what the situation is, not by themselves where they might be missing critical information because of the language barrier. There is a big difference between going to a country without the intension of living the rest of your life there, and with it.

I would posit.. that our actions in the middle east thanks to King George II have assured the need for anyone entering the military to learn arabic for the forseeable future.

[thirdworld19 0]

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You've convinced me. We need an official language in the US. Considering Spanish is the most commonly spoken language in the world spoken natively in more countries than any other language, in the name of maximum global efficiency, we should select Spanish.

(Mandarin is the most commonly spoken language in the world.)

I'm not sure where you get your info, but I believe that English is spoken officially, as a first language, in more countries than Spanish. (Spanish and French are 2nd and 3rd in numbers of countries.) In addition, even if it's not an official first language, most business throughout the world is done in English.

Mandarin is spoken by more people, but I don't know if I would consider it the most commonly spoken language. Define common. It's spoken as a first language in only 11 countries. Common in one country, but not throughout the world.

It sounds like most believe that it's good to learn a 2nd or 3rd language - in order to communicate with others. So, why not make it easy and have one main language - English, the official language of the world? And start with the US. Speak whatever you want with family and friends, but don't expect signs, forms, etc. to be in anything but English.

I have friends who are married - one is French, the other Chinese. They both know English and that is their common language. They know very little of the others native language. I've done a fair bit of traveling, and almost everywhere I've gone, English has been spoken and understood. If the point is communication, what's wrong with one language for all?