A really, really bad idea

[nerdgirl 0]

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what is the containment level of Southwest Research here in San Antonio??

Southwest Research Institute has one of the five existing US BSL-4 labs.

UT Galveston (Medical) has a BSL-4 under construction.

Most veterinary schools have a BSL-3 facility, and many researchers (but not all *&* it's not strictly required) work at BSL-3 level when working with HIV. Lots of universities have BSL-3 capable hoods or 'glove boxes'.

There's a whole separate issue of access to agents.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[SpeedRacer 1]

I work with HIV in a BSL3.

I wear a Tyvek coverall, shoe covers, face mask, safety glasses, and two pairs of latex gloves.

Speed Racer
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[mnealtx 0]

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LOL...there's already a BSL-3 there...

Mike, what is the containment level of Southwest Research here in San Antonio?? If i had to guess an area around here that is under consideration that would be it.

The Southwest Foundation for Biomedical Research site is a BSL-4 facility already - probably why they're being considered for the new facility.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[nerdgirl 0]

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...probably why they're being considered for the new facility.

That's part of the argument Southwest Research is making as part of the NBAF finalist consortium (through UT Health Science Center).

My speculation is that it will go to the Kansas or Mississippi group.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kallend 1,621]

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"Not yet" doesn't equal "Never".

.jim

and your point is obvious

Why do you take a reserve on your skydives? Oh yes, man made systems fail, sooner or later.

Yet another typical kallend obtuse reply.

Thanks for your help

I don't think anyone with any knowledge of engineering history would call it "obtuse". For human hubris, try reading "Ozymandias" sometime.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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"Not yet" doesn't equal "Never".

.jim

and your point is?

I think what there trying to say is just cos its been there 30 years doesnt mean something bad isnt going to happen and for the sake of safty those sorts of instillations should be moved off shore.....

If you need me to simplify i can send you a pm

Thank you for a "non-smart ass" answer!

I do think the point of my post is being misunderstood however.

This thread was based on the bad idea (of ones opinion) of moving a animal disease lab to the mainland. It came across to me like there was never one before.

That makes it a political argument vs one based on substance.

They exist already. They have existed at Iowa State University, Purdue University and many others I would suspect.

To add to the debate, I would not want ONE lab with ALL diseases in ONE place. Thoughts?


This thread was a pot sir thread when looked at in the context of what is going on today. Nothing more IMO

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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"Not yet" doesn't equal "Never".

.jim

and your point is obvious

Why do you take a reserve on your skydives? Oh yes, man made systems fail, sooner or later.

Yet another typical kallend obtuse reply.

Thanks for your help

I don't think anyone with any knowledge of engineering history would call it "obtuse". For human hubris, try reading "Ozymandias" sometime.

Not even close to the point but I suspect you know that already, which is exactly why you made the post looking (while looking in my mirror) that you did.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[base_nz 0]

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"Not yet" doesn't equal "Never".

.jim

and your point is?

I think what there trying to say is just cos its been there 30 years doesnt mean something bad isnt going to happen and for the sake of safty those sorts of instillations should be moved off shore.....

If you need me to simplify i can send you a pm

Thank you for a "non-smart ass" answer!

yea........sure

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[n23x 0]

Marc,

We've seen instances where mainland disease labs have been identified as the point of origin for outbreaks.

Here's one.

As mentioned earlier, cross-contamination is a good example of this within the agricultural sector. It's not intentional, but can occur despite your best efforts.

If you know that there is some possibility of local contamination around/outside of your lab, doesn't it seem like a smarter idea to put another safeguard in place, rather than put the lab in closer proximity to animals relied on for food?

As for the jobs issue, what kind of jobs do you think a lab will bring to KS or elsewhere? Will they be blue collar/white collar?

How does the benefit to the state (in terms of fresh jobs/incoming capital, etc) compare to the increased risk (given the proximity to livestock)?

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[rushmc 18]

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Marc,

We've seen instances where mainland disease labs have been identified as the point of origin for outbreaks.

Here's one.

As mentioned earlier, cross-contamination is a good example of this within the agricultural sector. It's not intentional, but can occur despite your best efforts.

If you know that there is some possibility of local contamination around/outside of your lab, doesn't it seem like a smarter idea to put another safeguard in place, rather than put the lab in closer proximity to animals relied on for food?

As for the jobs issue, what kind of jobs do you think a lab will bring to KS or elsewhere? Will they be blue collar/white collar?

How does the benefit to the state (in terms of fresh jobs/incoming capital, etc) compare to the increased risk (given the proximity to livestock)?

.jim

I do not dispute any of what you say here. It makes sense but, the fact remains that these type of places ALREADY existi. So, my point is that posting in the perspective that this is "something new" and post to use it in a political context is, well, dishonest.

I do not disagree with what you say. I do not want these places any closer to my home than you do but, THEY DO EXIST CLOSE TO OUR HOMES ALREADY.

Moving one facility or more to the point, making moving one facility of this type is nothing more than political bull shit. If this ONE makes a difference than what of the rest.

This whole thread is bull shit. I call bull shit. You and the others here can make their own determinations as to the motive of this thread

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,384]

>the fact remains that these type of places ALREADY existi . . .

The places that are set up to deal with that level of pathogen exist. They do not do development work on those pathogens.

It is akin to having a science lab in a government facility that CAN handle small quantities of HEU (highly enriched uranium.) That is different than a science lab that HAS small quantities of HEU.

>THEY DO EXIST CLOSE TO OUR HOMES ALREADY.

No they don't. They do not maintain and work on live cultures of hoof-and-mouth disease.

I know you desperately want to make this into a political argument, but that's just plain dumb. Moving work on infectious agents to places where widespread contagion is a possible outcome is stupid no matter what side of the aisle you are on.

[rushmc 18]

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>the fact remains that these type of places ALREADY existi . . .

The places that are set up to deal with that level of pathogen exist. They do not do development work on those pathogens.

It is akin to having a science lab in a government facility that CAN handle small quantities of HEU (highly enriched uranium.) That is different than a science lab that HAS small quantities of HEU.

>THEY DO EXIST CLOSE TO OUR HOMES ALREADY.

No they don't. They do not maintain and work on live cultures of hoof-and-mouth disease.

I know you desperately want to make this into a political argument, but that's just plain dumb. Moving work on infectious agents to places where widespread contagion is a possible outcome is stupid no matter what side of the aisle you are on.

I have no desperation at all. I asked for a reply. I go not direct reply. You have one other than this?

Level 3 Ag facilities exist today.

It appears to me that YOU want to make a political issue out of this by the placing it in the context you did. If I am wrong, forgive me but, the thread is not honest at best (as if appears to me) And I think you should look into what goes on at facilities located at ISU and Purdue before you push the evolope

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,384]

>It appears to me that YOU want to make a political issue out of this\
>by the placing it in the context you did.

Nope. It is not political; it is biological (more accurately epidemiological.)

>Level 3 Ag facilities exist today.

Yes, they do. And that does NOT mean that they do work on contagious pathogens. It just means they are equipped to handle them. Big difference.

[rushmc 18]

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>It appears to me that YOU want to make a political issue out of this\
>by the placing it in the context you did.

Nope. It is not political; it is biological (more accurately epidemiological.)

>Level 3 Ag facilities exist today.

Yes, they do. And that does NOT mean that they do work on contagious pathogens. It just means they are equipped to handle them. Big difference.

the difference here is you making a claim you can not back up.

Maybe YOU should do a little more reseach

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

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>It appears to me that YOU want to make a political issue out of this\
>by the placing it in the context you did.

Nope. It is not political; it is biological (more accurately epidemiological.)

>Level 3 Ag facilities exist today.

Yes, they do. And that does NOT mean that they do work on contagious pathogens. It just means they are equipped to handle them. Big difference.

the difference here is you making a claim you can not back up.

Maybe YOU should do a little more reseach

Bill's right - Plum Island is the ONLY place that hoof and mouth disease is being worked on - by Federal law, it can only be done OFF the continental US.

Other places may have equivalent protective protocols in place and may work with other animal diseases, but they are NOT working on HMD.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 18]

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>It appears to me that YOU want to make a political issue out of this\
>by the placing it in the context you did.

Nope. It is not political; it is biological (more accurately epidemiological.)

>Level 3 Ag facilities exist today.

Yes, they do. And that does NOT mean that they do work on contagious pathogens. It just means they are equipped to handle them. Big difference.

the difference here is you making a claim you can not back up.

Maybe YOU should do a little more reseach

Bill's right - Plum Island is the ONLY place that hoof and mouth disease is being worked on - by Federal law, it can only be done OFF the continental US.

Other places may have equivalent protective protocols in place and may work with other animal diseases, but they are NOT working on HMD.

I understand the hoof and mouth implication. But that is not the only most serious disease there is.

Your points are well taken but there are more than one "most" serious disease. And those are not worked on at that facility.

As for the law part of this? I was not aware of that but my point still remains.

And a level 3 is a level 3. It does not matter what disease is being worked on

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

FWIW, Bill *did* make a political statement with the WH remark.

Let me try another tack - let's say you have a lab that's working with the Ebola virus - is it safer to have that lab on a platform 50 miles offshore, or in the middle of Manhattan?

THAT's the point that's being discussed - not whether or not said labs already exist, but is it SMART to put the lab in closer proximity to the victim population if another outbreak happens?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kbordson 8]

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what is the containment level of Southwest Research here in San Antonio??

Southwest Research Institute has one of the five existing US BSL-4 labs.

UT Galveston (Medical) has a BSL-4 under construction.
VR/Marg

Soon to be a few more

[Amazon 7]

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I know you desperately want to make this into a political argument, but that's just plain dumb. Moving work on infectious agents to places where widespread contagion is a possible outcome is stupid no matter what side of the aisle you are on.

I would vote for the best labs that money and those who deal with the diseases can buy and design. But even with that.. as they said in one movie.. Life.. finds a way.


I would vote for ALL of the facilities to be placed someplace out to the west of Attu and Kiska in the Aleutian chain.

[nerdgirl 0]

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what is the containment level of Southwest Research here in San Antonio??

Southwest Research Institute has one of the five existing US BSL-4 labs.

UT Galveston (Medical) has a BSL-4 under construction.

Soon to be a few more

And a few more, subset shown by geographical distribution, & again that doesn't show the BSL-3 capable facilities (lab, box, or bag) that have nothing to do with biodefense research, i.e., most vet schools and university research labs.

And there's the pathogens to which access is granted. (Heck there are discussions, & a law in one case, on what percent or part of pathogen genome to which access can be granted.) Technically, most work with B. anthracis and Y. pestis, the causitive agents of anthrax & plague, respectively, only require a BSL-2 facility unless they are being produced in large quantity or aerosolized. Like HIV, however, a large number of researchers work at a higher biosafety level.

Every BSL-3 & BSL-4 facility does not have access to the CDC-Category A, B, or C agents or the USDA restricted agents. Otoh, there are labs that have access (other than a few very special cases, i.e., variola major [smallpox] and foot and mouth disease) to agents or parts of agents that aren't BSL-3 or BSL-4.

Biosafety Level designation is all about keeping bugs inside and the people who work with the pathogens, as well as the surrounding community, safe. Bioafety does not equal biosecurity. (And just having a pathogen does not equal having a weapon.)

With the still unsolved fall 2001 anthrax terrorism incident (5 deaths, 22 confirmed cases, prolly a couple more that fell outside the CDC official diagnosis, 11 of which were inhalational), the FBI was able to track back to the origin of the B anthracis through molecular epidemiology because there were only 4 possible domestic places from which the pathogen could have acquired (& the the molecular genetics were closest to the strains that were in those domestic labs; e.g., comparisons were done with strains at DSTL in UK). The Ames strain has only been found in nature once.

With the proliferation of BSL-3 and BSL-4 agents and if comensurate access to agents occurs, biosecurity becomes more complicated.

There's also a question that never really got fully answered: does the US really need all the additional BSL-3 and BSL-4 facilities?

Some like Plum Island desperately needed to be updated for safety, security, and the 20th (not 21st) Century. In 2003, there was an usused BSL-4 facility (owned by the NIH) in Reston, Virginia, which will likely never be used bacause of safety concerns, and an unused BSL-4 facility in Toronto.

While it should not be the primary driver, imo, the cost of maintaining & operating a BSL-4 lab is less than trivial. Who's going to pay for it? Right now it's primarily being paid for by NIH-NIAID. NIH is a spectacular organization (!) with good track record on biosafety; they do not have a culture of security. Before 1998, the DoD funded ~90% of the biodefense RDT&E work; now they fund ~10% (roughly $500M).

I have a great quote from a talk I gave in 2003 from the head of the Biotechnology Industry Organization (BIO) in which he basically makes the case why its too expensive for industry to own & operate such labs, which is true. Large industry has to be metaphorically dragged to the bench to pursue biodefense products because the market is small; small industry is a very different case.

It's more than just biosafety designations.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[pirana 0]

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[shakes head] I guess that your government has never talked to folks over here. Our latest 2007 Foot & Mouth cases were attributed to a leak from our mainland based facility at Pirbright.

Thought it was hoof and mouth. Or are you doing ever stranger things with your livestock these days?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[nerdgirl 0]

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[shakes head] I guess that your government has never talked to folks over here. Our latest 2007 Foot & Mouth cases were attributed to a leak from our mainland based facility at Pirbright.

Thought it was hoof and mouth. Or are you doing ever stranger things with your livestock these days?

Both are used vernacularly.

The neatest unexpected consequence of FMD concerns for me was coming back from Chamonix/Mont Blanc in June 2001 (iirc), USDA inspection service cleaned my hiking boots for me upon return to the US. I started to try to explain that it was unlikely that FMD virus would suvive on glacial ice/snow ... but then kept quiet when I saw how well they were being cleaned.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[rushmc 18]

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FWIW, Bill *did* make a political statement with the WH remark.

Let me try another tack - let's say you have a lab that's working with the Ebola virus - is it safer to have that lab on a platform 50 miles offshore, or in the middle of Manhattan?

THAT's the point that's being discussed - not whether or not said labs already exist, but is it SMART to put the lab in closer proximity to the victim population if another outbreak happens?

And I completely agree and understand your point.

I still think though the way this topic was presented was disingenuous. that was the point I was trying to make

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[shropshire 0]

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[shakes head] I guess that your government has never talked to folks over here. Our latest 2007 Foot & Mouth cases were attributed to a leak from our mainland based facility at Pirbright.

Thought it was hoof and mouth. Or are you doing ever stranger things with your livestock these days?

Nope it's Foot and Mouth... you peeps always have to be different... it's why we love you so much

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[mnealtx 0]

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you peeps always have to be different... it's why we love you so much

"Brolly"

"Butty"

"Quid"

"Bob"

We're the 'different' ones?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706