jakee 1,254 #751 May 8, 2008 Quote You don't like the ordinary definitions of words, do you? You like to be able to tweak them until they suit your argument, right? I never claimed being well-versed at anything more advanced than the basics... so yes, I can argue with you about the basic concept that things in nature move from order to disorder. Here's a newsflash for you, 'kay - Entropy is the word for a complex scientific concept. You simply cannot base your understanding of it on a single sentance in a dictionary. It is sheer idiocy to think that you can win an argument about what entropy means for the future of all matter in the universe knowing only what's written in the American Heritage Dictionary. I mean seriously - you're calling Wiki-fucking-pedia 'too technical' and you're still trying to make out like you have a clue what you're talking aboutDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #752 May 8, 2008 QuoteI never claimed being well-versed at anything more advanced than the basics... so yes, I can argue with you about the basic concept that things in nature move from order to disorder. I see it all around me--- if it occurs without exception in the little things (things I can see), I assume (and trust science which has validated my own experience) that it happens without exception on a large scale. The universe which is material moves toward disorder and will finally come to an end. Therefore it had a beginning. Things do have a tendency to move from order to disorder. Take your home for instance. It probably has a tendency to move toward disorder, but does it look like a huge garbage pile right now? If not, what happens to keep it from moving only in the direction of disorder? When water turns to ice, it is moving in a direction from disorder to more order. What is causing it to go against the natural tendency to move in the other direction? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #753 May 8, 2008 QuoteWhen water turns to ice, it is moving in a direction from disorder to more order. What is causing it to go against the natural tendency to move in the other direction? garden gnomes ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #754 May 8, 2008 >if it occurs without exception in the little things (things I can see) . . . Snowflakes move from disorder (gas in a cloud) to order (perfect crystals.) Lava moves from disorder (molten blob) to order (rock crystals.) Stalactites move from disorder (minerals in water) to order (perfect spires.) Salt moves from disorder (dissolved minerals in water) to order (salt crystals.) Empty space moves from disorder (gas clouds) to order (stars) - and sometimes to even more order (black holes.) Order is all around us, and more is being created every day by natural processes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #755 May 8, 2008 Quotegarden gnomes No, silly. Garden gnomes are responsible for DISorder. Or so it seems... since I am constantly having to clean up the mess that they make in my yard. Then they just sit there and pretend to be little statues, as if they don't run around causing havoc when I am not looking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #756 May 8, 2008 QuoteQuoteOh wonderful; let's not use the term eternal to mean "no beginning and no end" as it is usually thought to mean. Let's use a nuance of the word that is convenient for your atheistic worldview. Sheesh. Even if we use "no beginning and no end," the logic still applies. BTW, I'm not an atheist. I simply don't believe in supernatural, intervening deities. See, to me just the very thought of eternity, time, space, and the universe (as we know it) it just absolutely fascinating. What is also fascinating is how we as humans find a greater life, within life. What I mean is that we have life on this earth, but then we have this very powerful emotional "force" that ignites it within our hearts. I think that we can see that there is something inheritly good about everything but subject to the balance just the same. What I mean is the sun is good, but it can be bad to, the same with everything, unless our perception sees it in another light, that even when it is bad, we appreciate that it is good in the balance and know that even when it is bad, it is bad for the sake of good. That might get a bit confusing, but isnt love the same way? When it is good, we absolutely love it and it fills us with life, when we lose it our heart breaks and we mourn its loss, but there is also something beautiful and good about the loss of love; it inspires hope, gratitude, understanding, and seems to bring us to another level within ourselves. A revelation of the heart happens in an instant, an inspired thought that changes everything, in just a glance; how can we truly understand the power of the revelations in the heart; when something is heard but also believed. How can someone reveal to someone else thier own revelations with the same power? This is what is fascinating to me. Do you all remember that movie "Good Will Hunting"? What a fantastic movie. That moment at the very end where Robin williams is telling the kid its not your fault, and hes not really "getting it", and then it just sinks in with all the power and beauty of love and changes that kids whole perception....its just beautiful to me. What I mean I think it that I dont believe God "intervenes", it might be percieved that way of course due to how we understand time and timing, but (and this is only me) I think it is so much more incredibly powerful than that. With our own perception we find clouds and even walls, but if we stay open, then the possibilities are endless...literally. What may be percieved as us seeing "intervention" may actually be the very thing that was supposed to happen, but at the same time, im not sure what I believe about fate, of course I have thoughts on it, but I am way too open to come to any conclusion. It may be possible that we are all part of a collective eternal mind and that is why we have so many of the same wants and desires way beyond what is inherint to our envioronment, but deeper than that. Of course there is always the possibility that we serve no purpose at all, but I believe influence directly or indirectly proves that to be wrong. Whether we like it or not, we are easily influenced by one another in many many ways....anyways, just a thought...."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #757 May 9, 2008 Quote Yes, you can. And that would be an accurate use of the word. It may be evidence to you that there is no God, whether anyone else agrees with you or not. So what is worth then? In a dispute I need the evidence to convince others, not to convince myself - so it doesn't matter how reliable this "evidence" is to me. That's what most Christians cannot understand - that their "evidence" could only be considered acceptable by other Christians (since it's based on beliefs), and therefore cannot be used when they dispute with non-Christians. They, however, still try to use it, telling us that we should accept their evidence just because they consider it acceptable. Quote I could say that I saw someone with a smile on his face, and that was evidence that he was happy. And it would be reasonable evidence in my mind. But someone else who may know that the guy just experienced some horrible tragedy - that person may see the guy's smile as evidence that he is putting on a facade. Correct. That's why if you are looking for the REAL facts, there are very strict rules about evidence acceptance. The courts, and the science have those. Christians have those rules as well. The difference, however, is that science first considers the evidence, and then makes the theory - which may be changed in future, if there is reliable contradicting evidence. For Christians it's exactly the opposite - they already have the theory, so they just discard all the evidence which does not fit into their theory no matter how reliable the evidence is.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #758 May 9, 2008 Quote Humanity is unique from the rest of the animal kingdom in that we gather up tangible and intangible facts to create a reality used to order our lives and societies. Tangible facts can come from places like scientific discovery. Intangible facts require faith in a value system. If the value system is true it will produce predictable favorable results. The evidence that the object of ones faith is true is in those reproducible favorable outcomes. Our evidence that faith in God is true is the results it produces in the believers life. You sound like a prophet - a lot of words, but nothing specific. What you just wrote could be interpreted in a many different ways. Could you please explain it being more specific? Also nobody challenges that "faith in God" is true. But it's not evidence that God exists. A lot of people truly believe in Tooth Fairy, or Santa Claus - but it doesn't make them real either.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #759 May 9, 2008 Have a look here and here.*** Interesting reading, but if that were true where is the left over permeating electromagnetic radiation from such an event like the microwave background radiation of the big bang mapped by NASAs Wilkinsons Microwave Anistopy Probe? Last I heard, the anti-gravity repulsive forces of dark matter was suppose to keep the universe expanding forever at an exponential rate. How do you explain the gravitational forces overcoming those of dark matter? ______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #760 May 9, 2008 You sound like a prophet - a lot of words, but nothing specific. What you just wrote could be interpreted in a many different ways. Could you please explain it being more specific?*** For better or worse, Spiritual discovery is acquired by faith perception. If the object of ones faith is true it will produce good works of great value, over and over again & for every one who places their faith in those objects. Christian teaching as an object of faith will never fail the believer. They have never failed me. ______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #761 May 9, 2008 QuoteQuoteWhere is your evidence of an "eternal cycle"? The universe is, by its very nature, eternal. Time exists within the universe, not the other way aroundQuote We have a very limited understanding of eternity. Time cant exist without space, nor can space exist without time... The question is whether life exists indepenantly of the body, or even better, could it? The most powerful, most indescribable, evading, and miraculous thing on the earth cannot be bottled or even seen. Without life, our perception of time and space wouldnt even exist. It is revealed through love that there is a life independant of just being alive, with perceptions that see everything good, pure, and beautiful. Just as we are born into the first, we must be born into the second. The first life exists only in the flesh and will disappear with the flesh, the second (if it can be percieved as possible) exists in spirit ( invisible energy), where faith, hope, and love lead us. Why, if when we are so enlightened by a change of perception that seems to be independant of the first life, is it so hard to believe that there are more changes of perception? Perhaps just as invisible, but just as real, also existing within time and space and being revealed in moments that are bred into an eternal canvas? The very nature of a revelation or insight is that it was completely invisible to us before, but through a change of perception (with or without evidence), recieved in the heart, became visible, powerful, and life changing. Is it so hard to believe that our perceptions could change of eternal life, from being completely invisible, to being visible? This is what faith that is genuine does. Im talking about tapping into the actual energy or power of life and learning from that perception. When we find a new perception, the old one dies and we become born again into the new. Jesus said the same thing, but hid it in parables. It seems to me that love is inherant to all of us who were given life. It seems to me that love is actually the energy of life and that to live without it is the energy of death (or to be without life). Loves engery can only be recieved if it is believed, we can only find that "perception" if we die to the old one. That is, that which was born innocent, became guilty due to the lack of belief, therefore began the search for love, (which we all do, because it is the very energy in our being) only when we become innocent again (repent) can we begin to believe in loves power and find the engery within it. When we have a perception of guilt, innocence is not seen, only sought, but when we are set free from that guilt, our perception changes and we become innocent again, which is the foundational energy behind love. Jesus says all this in parables and Isaiah prophesied 800yrs before that there would be a human sacrafice and that he would be called a guilt offering. Guilt is evasive, we dont ever want to acknowledge it, therefore it remains hidden, it is hidden even more in those who believe themselves to not be guilty and it is only revealed through the truth. Jesus hid all this stuff in his message, to hear the secrets, his credibility as the Messiah (the teacher) must be revealed. Just as no one can reveal thier insight to others, no one can reveal Jesus to others. We can only guide and speak. "39Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind." 40Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?" 41Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." "Unless you change and become like little children, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of Heaven" "Heaven does not come with your close observation, becasue the kingdom of Heaven is within you" "I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds" "The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life." "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.""We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maadmax 0 #762 May 9, 2008 You realize that black holes have an extremely high level (some say maximum level) of entropy, right? And you know that black holes are likely the most analogous phenomena to the singularity of the known universe, right? Your conclusion is not logical*** This statement is messed up. The degree of entropy in a black hole is extremely low ( highest degree of order). As plasma is extruded form the bipolar jets, the entropy of matter in those jets increases ( becomes less ordered), and so will continue, as the rest of the universe, until it reaches its highest state of entropy(disorder). ______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #763 May 9, 2008 Quote For better or worse, Spiritual discovery is acquired by faith perception. If the object of ones faith is true it will produce good works of great value, over and over again & for every one who places their faith in those objects. Christian teaching as an object of faith will never fail the believer. I personally know several Christians (some of them even being ministers for their whole life) who died in painful death. I personally know more than one Christian family which is poor, and needs some basic stuff. I also suspect that at least some of those who died at 9/11 were failthful Christians, while non-Christian Osama Bin Laden who didn't die (and probably doesn't suffer either) lives just fine. There are of course more examples where Christians are in need, suffer meaninglessly or just die in a wrong way. They all believe in God, and therefore - according to you - it should produce good works of great value, over and over again, for each of them. So why do they suffer? Why the object of their faith failed the believers? Quote They have never failed me. Are you sure? Then you should be able to take Billvon's challenge - jump from a plane (or tall building) without a chute, and let your God save you. Make it public, invite a lot of scientists, press and whatever - it will make obvious for any of those damn atheists that the God exists. Since it never failed you, you should be pretty comfortable with this. So where and when could we see it?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #764 May 9, 2008 QuoteQuoteHave a look here and here. Interesting reading, but if that were true where is the left over permeating electromagnetic radiation from such an event like the microwave background radiation of the big bang mapped by NASAs Wilkinsons Microwave Anistopy Probe? Bear in mind that Big Bounce models vary slightly from Big Bang models, in that they are based on quantum physics rather than Relativity. One theory is the energy would not have survived the bounce (roughly equivalent to the singularity of the Big Bang) in that form. Another theory is that there may indeed be evidence of the "previous universe" in the cosmic microwave background radiation. Source QuoteLast I heard, the anti-gravity repulsive forces of dark matter was suppose to keep the universe expanding forever at an exponential rate. How do you explain the gravitational forces overcoming those of dark matter? Here is one possibility. The Big Bounce theories I have read about have been derived since the discovery that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, so that acceleration had to be taken into consideration.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #765 May 9, 2008 Quote Quote For better or worse, Spiritual discovery is acquired by faith perception. If the object of ones faith is true it will produce good works of great value, over and over again & for every one who places their faith in those objects. Christian teaching as an object of faith will never fail the believer. I personally know several Christians (some of them even being ministers for their whole life) who died in painful death. I personally know more than one Christian family which is poor, and needs some basic stuff. I also suspect that at least some of those who died at 9/11 were failthful Christians, while non-Christian Osama Bin Laden who didn't die (and probably doesn't suffer either) lives just fine. There are of course more examples where Christians are in need, suffer meaninglessly or just die in a wrong way. They all believe in God, and therefore - according to you - it should produce good works of great value, over and over again, for each of them. So why do they suffer? Why the object of their faith failed the believers? -"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony" Quote They have never failed me. Are you sure? Then you should be able to take Billvon's challenge - jump from a plane (or tall building) without a chute, and let your God save you. Make it public, invite a lot of scientists, press and whatever - it will make obvious for any of those damn atheists that the God exists. Since it never failed you, you should be pretty comfortable with this. "We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,384 #766 May 9, 2008 >jump from a plane (or tall building) without a chute, and let your God save you. Actually I wasn't proposing jumping without a parachute! Just jump with a rig (with a cypres) and see if it is God or Helmut Cloth that saves you. That would give you some solid info - and leave you alive to use it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #767 May 9, 2008 Quote >jump from a plane (or tall building) without a chute, and let your God save you. Actually I wasn't proposing jumping without a parachute! Just jump with a rig (with a cypres) and see if it is God or Helmut Cloth that saves you. That would give you some solid info - and leave you alive to use it. "We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #768 May 9, 2008 QuoteThis statement is messed up. The degree of entropy in a black hole is extremely low ( highest degree of order). As plasma is extruded form the bipolar jets, the entropy of matter in those jets increases ( becomes less ordered), and so will continue, as the rest of the universe, until it reaches its highest state of entropy(disorder). Black holes have entropy, and that entropy increases as matter is absorbed into it. For a given volume, black holes have the maximum possible entropy. The entropy can be calculated precisely by: S = (pi·k·A·c^3)/(2·G·h) where S is the entropy of the black hole, k is Boltzmann's constant, A is the surface area of the black hole, c is the speed of light, G is the gravitational constant, and h is Planck's constantMath tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #769 May 9, 2008 Quote Actually I wasn't proposing jumping without a parachute! Just jump with a rig (with a cypres) and see if it is God or Helmut Cloth that saves you. That would give you some solid info - and leave you alive to use it. This would imply that he is not sure about the God's good intention to save him, or maybe even questions the existense of God itself! Wouldn't this be a sign of disrespect to God Almighty, which should carry grave cosequences?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #770 May 9, 2008 Quote Then how it could be proof of the God's existense (see the original post)? I could understand how it could prove it if you receive something - but how could it prove anything if you just give? After all, an atheist and a Christian are giving in the same way, it doesn't look different. Quote How many times have you neglected to give to someone who is in need? A lot. So what? Your Jesus said that if you have two shirts, give away one - so basically if you have more than one shirt, you did not give to poor enough, no matter how good Christian you think you are. You will never be able to give enough. A funny thing also is that Christians give to poor because their Jesus said so, and they have to do it if they want to be saved. Atheists, however, do it because they just think it's right thing to do, and do not expect to be "saved" for doing that. Quote -"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony" The problem is, where is the proof? I could also claim that anyone who didn't get me $100 will scream in agony after death. Your claim is no different. Quote Well, you are not Jesus. If you did just 1% of what Jesus allegerly did, nobody would ask you to do anything. Quote Im sorry but im afraid you may have missed what maadmax's point was. Love my freind, love never failed. Everything Jesus taught was how to love from the heart. Not jumping off mountains to prove Gods existance, that has nothing to do with love. I'm sorry, my friend, you completely missed the point of discussion. We are not talking about what you should or should not do. We are talking about existence of the God.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mockingbird 0 #771 May 9, 2008 Quote Science doesn't have all the pieces, nor has anyone claimed they do. However, there is more evidence suggesting the possibility of a cyclic or oscillating universe than one created by a supernatural deity (for which there is zero evidence). In other words, naturalism requires faith, too. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist... or a naturalist. On an altogether other note! I'm gonna' have to leave this thread for now. I hope you and others will be assured that I still care, but I'm in charge of a big project for my high school reunion that's coming up in less than a month, and I've got to stop hanging around the forum so much and concentrate on getting this project ready!! (If anyone has ever put together a reunion memory book for reunion attendees, I'd be happy to receive suggestions!) I'll check back and see if y'all are still at it in a few weeks. Please take care! Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #772 May 9, 2008 Quote Quote Then how it could be proof of the God's existense (see the original post)? I could understand how it could prove it if you receive something - but how could it prove anything if you just give? After all, an atheist and a Christian are giving in the same way, it doesn't look different. Quote How many times have you neglected to give to someone who is in need? A lot. So what? Your Jesus said that if you have two shirts, give away one - so basically if you have more than one shirt, you did not give to poor enough, no matter how good Christian you think you are. You will never be able to give enough. A funny thing also is that Christians give to poor because their Jesus said so, and they have to do it if they want to be saved. Atheists, however, do it because they just think it's right thing to do, and do not expect to be "saved" for doing that. Quote -"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony" The problem is, where is the proof? I could also claim that anyone who didn't get me $100 will scream in agony after death. Your claim is no different. Quote Well, you are not Jesus. If you did just 1% of what Jesus allegerly did, nobody would ask you to do anything. Quote Im sorry but im afraid you may have missed what maadmax's point was. Love my freind, love never failed. Everything Jesus taught was how to love from the heart. Not jumping off mountains to prove Gods existance, that has nothing to do with love. I'm sorry, my friend, you completely missed the point of discussion. We are not talking about what you should or should not do. We are talking about existence of the God. Why did you change the intent of what I said and then cover it up by saying that I missed your intent? I did not miss your intent, I answered your questions where I saw error. Personally i think you need to go back and read your own post, then read what I wrote, then read what you wrote...I will do the same, becasue what you said here is very confusing to me."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darktreader 0 #773 May 9, 2008 This is one of my favorites... http://www.metacafe.com/w/204018"Before we waste time talking and getting to know each other, let's just have sex once and see if we're compatible" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #774 May 9, 2008 If you knew God existed, what would you change? Why would you need proof of his non-existance? You aparently already have the proof he doesnt exist right? People who seek God seek something greater than themselves and they do it for a reason. Healing, answers, refuge, love...I mean the list goes on and on. But what do people seek when trying to convince themselves he isnt real? Alot of atheist and non-believers are very scientific and extremely imaginative, they like to discuss the fascinating topics of eternity, time and space for their own understanding. Everyone is on thier own path and searching for whatever theyre searching for. You responded to my quote earlier, "it is wise to keep an open heart in regards to the existance of God", then I saw some error in what you were saying on the Christians' behalf when you responded to maadmax. At that point your no longer having a private conversation with someone, it is public and open to scrutiny, especially when someone sees error in your representation. If I miss someones intent, it is becuase I was not really listening to what they were saying, that is entirely my fault and I will try to fix the problem, I would hope others would do the same, but that doesnt always happen, and I am stuck writing stuff like this."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #775 May 9, 2008 Quote Quote Then how it could be proof of the God's existense (see the original post)? I could understand how it could prove it if you receive something - but how could it prove anything if you just give? After all, an atheist and a Christian are giving in the same way, it doesn't look different. MY REPLY..."The good works are not good things that we recieve as much as they are good things that we give" It is possible to give and recieve things that are not material. Quote How many times have you neglected to give to someone who is in need? A lot. So what? Your Jesus said that if you have two shirts, give away one - so basically if you have more than one shirt, you did not give to poor enough, no matter how good Christian you think you are. You will never be able to give enough. A funny thing also is that Christians give to poor because their Jesus said so, and they have to do it if they want to be saved. Atheists, however, do it because they just think it's right thing to do, and do not expect to be "saved" for doing that. MY REPLY..."How many times have you neglected to give to someone who is in need? By the way you judge Christians, you must judge yourself, none of us are innocent, none of us are good" Quote -"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony" The problem is, where is the proof? I could also claim that anyone who didn't get me $100 will scream in agony after death. Your claim is no different. Quote Well, you are not Jesus. If you did just 1% of what Jesus allegerly did, nobody would ask you to do anything. Quote Im sorry but im afraid you may have missed what maadmax's point was. Love my freind, love never failed. Everything Jesus taught was how to love from the heart. Not jumping off mountains to prove Gods existance, that has nothing to do with love. I'm sorry, my friend, you completely missed the point of discussion. We are not talking about what you should or should not do. We are talking about existence of the God. "We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 Next Page 31 of 36 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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maadmax 0 #762 May 9, 2008 You realize that black holes have an extremely high level (some say maximum level) of entropy, right? And you know that black holes are likely the most analogous phenomena to the singularity of the known universe, right? Your conclusion is not logical*** This statement is messed up. The degree of entropy in a black hole is extremely low ( highest degree of order). As plasma is extruded form the bipolar jets, the entropy of matter in those jets increases ( becomes less ordered), and so will continue, as the rest of the universe, until it reaches its highest state of entropy(disorder). ______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #763 May 9, 2008 Quote For better or worse, Spiritual discovery is acquired by faith perception. If the object of ones faith is true it will produce good works of great value, over and over again & for every one who places their faith in those objects. Christian teaching as an object of faith will never fail the believer. I personally know several Christians (some of them even being ministers for their whole life) who died in painful death. I personally know more than one Christian family which is poor, and needs some basic stuff. I also suspect that at least some of those who died at 9/11 were failthful Christians, while non-Christian Osama Bin Laden who didn't die (and probably doesn't suffer either) lives just fine. There are of course more examples where Christians are in need, suffer meaninglessly or just die in a wrong way. They all believe in God, and therefore - according to you - it should produce good works of great value, over and over again, for each of them. So why do they suffer? Why the object of their faith failed the believers? Quote They have never failed me. Are you sure? Then you should be able to take Billvon's challenge - jump from a plane (or tall building) without a chute, and let your God save you. Make it public, invite a lot of scientists, press and whatever - it will make obvious for any of those damn atheists that the God exists. Since it never failed you, you should be pretty comfortable with this. So where and when could we see it?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #764 May 9, 2008 QuoteQuoteHave a look here and here. Interesting reading, but if that were true where is the left over permeating electromagnetic radiation from such an event like the microwave background radiation of the big bang mapped by NASAs Wilkinsons Microwave Anistopy Probe? Bear in mind that Big Bounce models vary slightly from Big Bang models, in that they are based on quantum physics rather than Relativity. One theory is the energy would not have survived the bounce (roughly equivalent to the singularity of the Big Bang) in that form. Another theory is that there may indeed be evidence of the "previous universe" in the cosmic microwave background radiation. Source QuoteLast I heard, the anti-gravity repulsive forces of dark matter was suppose to keep the universe expanding forever at an exponential rate. How do you explain the gravitational forces overcoming those of dark matter? Here is one possibility. The Big Bounce theories I have read about have been derived since the discovery that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, so that acceleration had to be taken into consideration.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #765 May 9, 2008 Quote Quote For better or worse, Spiritual discovery is acquired by faith perception. If the object of ones faith is true it will produce good works of great value, over and over again & for every one who places their faith in those objects. Christian teaching as an object of faith will never fail the believer. I personally know several Christians (some of them even being ministers for their whole life) who died in painful death. I personally know more than one Christian family which is poor, and needs some basic stuff. I also suspect that at least some of those who died at 9/11 were failthful Christians, while non-Christian Osama Bin Laden who didn't die (and probably doesn't suffer either) lives just fine. There are of course more examples where Christians are in need, suffer meaninglessly or just die in a wrong way. They all believe in God, and therefore - according to you - it should produce good works of great value, over and over again, for each of them. So why do they suffer? Why the object of their faith failed the believers? -"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony" Quote They have never failed me. Are you sure? Then you should be able to take Billvon's challenge - jump from a plane (or tall building) without a chute, and let your God save you. Make it public, invite a lot of scientists, press and whatever - it will make obvious for any of those damn atheists that the God exists. Since it never failed you, you should be pretty comfortable with this. "We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,384 #766 May 9, 2008 >jump from a plane (or tall building) without a chute, and let your God save you. Actually I wasn't proposing jumping without a parachute! Just jump with a rig (with a cypres) and see if it is God or Helmut Cloth that saves you. That would give you some solid info - and leave you alive to use it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #767 May 9, 2008 Quote >jump from a plane (or tall building) without a chute, and let your God save you. Actually I wasn't proposing jumping without a parachute! Just jump with a rig (with a cypres) and see if it is God or Helmut Cloth that saves you. That would give you some solid info - and leave you alive to use it. "We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #768 May 9, 2008 QuoteThis statement is messed up. The degree of entropy in a black hole is extremely low ( highest degree of order). As plasma is extruded form the bipolar jets, the entropy of matter in those jets increases ( becomes less ordered), and so will continue, as the rest of the universe, until it reaches its highest state of entropy(disorder). Black holes have entropy, and that entropy increases as matter is absorbed into it. For a given volume, black holes have the maximum possible entropy. The entropy can be calculated precisely by: S = (pi·k·A·c^3)/(2·G·h) where S is the entropy of the black hole, k is Boltzmann's constant, A is the surface area of the black hole, c is the speed of light, G is the gravitational constant, and h is Planck's constantMath tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #769 May 9, 2008 Quote Actually I wasn't proposing jumping without a parachute! Just jump with a rig (with a cypres) and see if it is God or Helmut Cloth that saves you. That would give you some solid info - and leave you alive to use it. This would imply that he is not sure about the God's good intention to save him, or maybe even questions the existense of God itself! Wouldn't this be a sign of disrespect to God Almighty, which should carry grave cosequences?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #770 May 9, 2008 Quote Then how it could be proof of the God's existense (see the original post)? I could understand how it could prove it if you receive something - but how could it prove anything if you just give? After all, an atheist and a Christian are giving in the same way, it doesn't look different. Quote How many times have you neglected to give to someone who is in need? A lot. So what? Your Jesus said that if you have two shirts, give away one - so basically if you have more than one shirt, you did not give to poor enough, no matter how good Christian you think you are. You will never be able to give enough. A funny thing also is that Christians give to poor because their Jesus said so, and they have to do it if they want to be saved. Atheists, however, do it because they just think it's right thing to do, and do not expect to be "saved" for doing that. Quote -"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony" The problem is, where is the proof? I could also claim that anyone who didn't get me $100 will scream in agony after death. Your claim is no different. Quote Well, you are not Jesus. If you did just 1% of what Jesus allegerly did, nobody would ask you to do anything. Quote Im sorry but im afraid you may have missed what maadmax's point was. Love my freind, love never failed. Everything Jesus taught was how to love from the heart. Not jumping off mountains to prove Gods existance, that has nothing to do with love. I'm sorry, my friend, you completely missed the point of discussion. We are not talking about what you should or should not do. We are talking about existence of the God.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mockingbird 0 #771 May 9, 2008 Quote Science doesn't have all the pieces, nor has anyone claimed they do. However, there is more evidence suggesting the possibility of a cyclic or oscillating universe than one created by a supernatural deity (for which there is zero evidence). In other words, naturalism requires faith, too. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist... or a naturalist. On an altogether other note! I'm gonna' have to leave this thread for now. I hope you and others will be assured that I still care, but I'm in charge of a big project for my high school reunion that's coming up in less than a month, and I've got to stop hanging around the forum so much and concentrate on getting this project ready!! (If anyone has ever put together a reunion memory book for reunion attendees, I'd be happy to receive suggestions!) I'll check back and see if y'all are still at it in a few weeks. Please take care! Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #772 May 9, 2008 Quote Quote Then how it could be proof of the God's existense (see the original post)? I could understand how it could prove it if you receive something - but how could it prove anything if you just give? After all, an atheist and a Christian are giving in the same way, it doesn't look different. Quote How many times have you neglected to give to someone who is in need? A lot. So what? Your Jesus said that if you have two shirts, give away one - so basically if you have more than one shirt, you did not give to poor enough, no matter how good Christian you think you are. You will never be able to give enough. A funny thing also is that Christians give to poor because their Jesus said so, and they have to do it if they want to be saved. Atheists, however, do it because they just think it's right thing to do, and do not expect to be "saved" for doing that. Quote -"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony" The problem is, where is the proof? I could also claim that anyone who didn't get me $100 will scream in agony after death. Your claim is no different. Quote Well, you are not Jesus. If you did just 1% of what Jesus allegerly did, nobody would ask you to do anything. Quote Im sorry but im afraid you may have missed what maadmax's point was. Love my freind, love never failed. Everything Jesus taught was how to love from the heart. Not jumping off mountains to prove Gods existance, that has nothing to do with love. I'm sorry, my friend, you completely missed the point of discussion. We are not talking about what you should or should not do. We are talking about existence of the God. Why did you change the intent of what I said and then cover it up by saying that I missed your intent? I did not miss your intent, I answered your questions where I saw error. Personally i think you need to go back and read your own post, then read what I wrote, then read what you wrote...I will do the same, becasue what you said here is very confusing to me."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darktreader 0 #773 May 9, 2008 This is one of my favorites... http://www.metacafe.com/w/204018"Before we waste time talking and getting to know each other, let's just have sex once and see if we're compatible" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #774 May 9, 2008 If you knew God existed, what would you change? Why would you need proof of his non-existance? You aparently already have the proof he doesnt exist right? People who seek God seek something greater than themselves and they do it for a reason. Healing, answers, refuge, love...I mean the list goes on and on. But what do people seek when trying to convince themselves he isnt real? Alot of atheist and non-believers are very scientific and extremely imaginative, they like to discuss the fascinating topics of eternity, time and space for their own understanding. Everyone is on thier own path and searching for whatever theyre searching for. You responded to my quote earlier, "it is wise to keep an open heart in regards to the existance of God", then I saw some error in what you were saying on the Christians' behalf when you responded to maadmax. At that point your no longer having a private conversation with someone, it is public and open to scrutiny, especially when someone sees error in your representation. If I miss someones intent, it is becuase I was not really listening to what they were saying, that is entirely my fault and I will try to fix the problem, I would hope others would do the same, but that doesnt always happen, and I am stuck writing stuff like this."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #775 May 9, 2008 Quote Quote Then how it could be proof of the God's existense (see the original post)? I could understand how it could prove it if you receive something - but how could it prove anything if you just give? After all, an atheist and a Christian are giving in the same way, it doesn't look different. MY REPLY..."The good works are not good things that we recieve as much as they are good things that we give" It is possible to give and recieve things that are not material. Quote How many times have you neglected to give to someone who is in need? A lot. So what? Your Jesus said that if you have two shirts, give away one - so basically if you have more than one shirt, you did not give to poor enough, no matter how good Christian you think you are. You will never be able to give enough. A funny thing also is that Christians give to poor because their Jesus said so, and they have to do it if they want to be saved. Atheists, however, do it because they just think it's right thing to do, and do not expect to be "saved" for doing that. MY REPLY..."How many times have you neglected to give to someone who is in need? By the way you judge Christians, you must judge yourself, none of us are innocent, none of us are good" Quote -"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony" The problem is, where is the proof? I could also claim that anyone who didn't get me $100 will scream in agony after death. Your claim is no different. Quote Well, you are not Jesus. If you did just 1% of what Jesus allegerly did, nobody would ask you to do anything. Quote Im sorry but im afraid you may have missed what maadmax's point was. Love my freind, love never failed. Everything Jesus taught was how to love from the heart. Not jumping off mountains to prove Gods existance, that has nothing to do with love. I'm sorry, my friend, you completely missed the point of discussion. We are not talking about what you should or should not do. We are talking about existence of the God. "We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 Next Page 31 of 36 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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rynodigsmusic 0 #765 May 9, 2008 Quote Quote For better or worse, Spiritual discovery is acquired by faith perception. If the object of ones faith is true it will produce good works of great value, over and over again & for every one who places their faith in those objects. Christian teaching as an object of faith will never fail the believer. I personally know several Christians (some of them even being ministers for their whole life) who died in painful death. I personally know more than one Christian family which is poor, and needs some basic stuff. I also suspect that at least some of those who died at 9/11 were failthful Christians, while non-Christian Osama Bin Laden who didn't die (and probably doesn't suffer either) lives just fine. There are of course more examples where Christians are in need, suffer meaninglessly or just die in a wrong way. They all believe in God, and therefore - according to you - it should produce good works of great value, over and over again, for each of them. So why do they suffer? Why the object of their faith failed the believers? -"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony" Quote They have never failed me. Are you sure? Then you should be able to take Billvon's challenge - jump from a plane (or tall building) without a chute, and let your God save you. Make it public, invite a lot of scientists, press and whatever - it will make obvious for any of those damn atheists that the God exists. Since it never failed you, you should be pretty comfortable with this. "We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #766 May 9, 2008 >jump from a plane (or tall building) without a chute, and let your God save you. Actually I wasn't proposing jumping without a parachute! Just jump with a rig (with a cypres) and see if it is God or Helmut Cloth that saves you. That would give you some solid info - and leave you alive to use it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #767 May 9, 2008 Quote >jump from a plane (or tall building) without a chute, and let your God save you. Actually I wasn't proposing jumping without a parachute! Just jump with a rig (with a cypres) and see if it is God or Helmut Cloth that saves you. That would give you some solid info - and leave you alive to use it. "We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #768 May 9, 2008 QuoteThis statement is messed up. The degree of entropy in a black hole is extremely low ( highest degree of order). As plasma is extruded form the bipolar jets, the entropy of matter in those jets increases ( becomes less ordered), and so will continue, as the rest of the universe, until it reaches its highest state of entropy(disorder). Black holes have entropy, and that entropy increases as matter is absorbed into it. For a given volume, black holes have the maximum possible entropy. The entropy can be calculated precisely by: S = (pi·k·A·c^3)/(2·G·h) where S is the entropy of the black hole, k is Boltzmann's constant, A is the surface area of the black hole, c is the speed of light, G is the gravitational constant, and h is Planck's constantMath tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #769 May 9, 2008 Quote Actually I wasn't proposing jumping without a parachute! Just jump with a rig (with a cypres) and see if it is God or Helmut Cloth that saves you. That would give you some solid info - and leave you alive to use it. This would imply that he is not sure about the God's good intention to save him, or maybe even questions the existense of God itself! Wouldn't this be a sign of disrespect to God Almighty, which should carry grave cosequences?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #770 May 9, 2008 Quote Then how it could be proof of the God's existense (see the original post)? I could understand how it could prove it if you receive something - but how could it prove anything if you just give? After all, an atheist and a Christian are giving in the same way, it doesn't look different. Quote How many times have you neglected to give to someone who is in need? A lot. So what? Your Jesus said that if you have two shirts, give away one - so basically if you have more than one shirt, you did not give to poor enough, no matter how good Christian you think you are. You will never be able to give enough. A funny thing also is that Christians give to poor because their Jesus said so, and they have to do it if they want to be saved. Atheists, however, do it because they just think it's right thing to do, and do not expect to be "saved" for doing that. Quote -"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony" The problem is, where is the proof? I could also claim that anyone who didn't get me $100 will scream in agony after death. Your claim is no different. Quote Well, you are not Jesus. If you did just 1% of what Jesus allegerly did, nobody would ask you to do anything. Quote Im sorry but im afraid you may have missed what maadmax's point was. Love my freind, love never failed. Everything Jesus taught was how to love from the heart. Not jumping off mountains to prove Gods existance, that has nothing to do with love. I'm sorry, my friend, you completely missed the point of discussion. We are not talking about what you should or should not do. We are talking about existence of the God.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #771 May 9, 2008 Quote Science doesn't have all the pieces, nor has anyone claimed they do. However, there is more evidence suggesting the possibility of a cyclic or oscillating universe than one created by a supernatural deity (for which there is zero evidence). In other words, naturalism requires faith, too. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist... or a naturalist. On an altogether other note! I'm gonna' have to leave this thread for now. I hope you and others will be assured that I still care, but I'm in charge of a big project for my high school reunion that's coming up in less than a month, and I've got to stop hanging around the forum so much and concentrate on getting this project ready!! (If anyone has ever put together a reunion memory book for reunion attendees, I'd be happy to receive suggestions!) I'll check back and see if y'all are still at it in a few weeks. Please take care! Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #772 May 9, 2008 Quote Quote Then how it could be proof of the God's existense (see the original post)? I could understand how it could prove it if you receive something - but how could it prove anything if you just give? After all, an atheist and a Christian are giving in the same way, it doesn't look different. Quote How many times have you neglected to give to someone who is in need? A lot. So what? Your Jesus said that if you have two shirts, give away one - so basically if you have more than one shirt, you did not give to poor enough, no matter how good Christian you think you are. You will never be able to give enough. A funny thing also is that Christians give to poor because their Jesus said so, and they have to do it if they want to be saved. Atheists, however, do it because they just think it's right thing to do, and do not expect to be "saved" for doing that. Quote -"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony" The problem is, where is the proof? I could also claim that anyone who didn't get me $100 will scream in agony after death. Your claim is no different. Quote Well, you are not Jesus. If you did just 1% of what Jesus allegerly did, nobody would ask you to do anything. Quote Im sorry but im afraid you may have missed what maadmax's point was. Love my freind, love never failed. Everything Jesus taught was how to love from the heart. Not jumping off mountains to prove Gods existance, that has nothing to do with love. I'm sorry, my friend, you completely missed the point of discussion. We are not talking about what you should or should not do. We are talking about existence of the God. Why did you change the intent of what I said and then cover it up by saying that I missed your intent? I did not miss your intent, I answered your questions where I saw error. Personally i think you need to go back and read your own post, then read what I wrote, then read what you wrote...I will do the same, becasue what you said here is very confusing to me."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darktreader 0 #773 May 9, 2008 This is one of my favorites... http://www.metacafe.com/w/204018"Before we waste time talking and getting to know each other, let's just have sex once and see if we're compatible" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #774 May 9, 2008 If you knew God existed, what would you change? Why would you need proof of his non-existance? You aparently already have the proof he doesnt exist right? People who seek God seek something greater than themselves and they do it for a reason. Healing, answers, refuge, love...I mean the list goes on and on. But what do people seek when trying to convince themselves he isnt real? Alot of atheist and non-believers are very scientific and extremely imaginative, they like to discuss the fascinating topics of eternity, time and space for their own understanding. Everyone is on thier own path and searching for whatever theyre searching for. You responded to my quote earlier, "it is wise to keep an open heart in regards to the existance of God", then I saw some error in what you were saying on the Christians' behalf when you responded to maadmax. At that point your no longer having a private conversation with someone, it is public and open to scrutiny, especially when someone sees error in your representation. If I miss someones intent, it is becuase I was not really listening to what they were saying, that is entirely my fault and I will try to fix the problem, I would hope others would do the same, but that doesnt always happen, and I am stuck writing stuff like this."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #775 May 9, 2008 Quote Quote Then how it could be proof of the God's existense (see the original post)? I could understand how it could prove it if you receive something - but how could it prove anything if you just give? After all, an atheist and a Christian are giving in the same way, it doesn't look different. MY REPLY..."The good works are not good things that we recieve as much as they are good things that we give" It is possible to give and recieve things that are not material. Quote How many times have you neglected to give to someone who is in need? A lot. So what? Your Jesus said that if you have two shirts, give away one - so basically if you have more than one shirt, you did not give to poor enough, no matter how good Christian you think you are. You will never be able to give enough. A funny thing also is that Christians give to poor because their Jesus said so, and they have to do it if they want to be saved. Atheists, however, do it because they just think it's right thing to do, and do not expect to be "saved" for doing that. MY REPLY..."How many times have you neglected to give to someone who is in need? By the way you judge Christians, you must judge yourself, none of us are innocent, none of us are good" Quote -"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony" The problem is, where is the proof? I could also claim that anyone who didn't get me $100 will scream in agony after death. Your claim is no different. Quote Well, you are not Jesus. If you did just 1% of what Jesus allegerly did, nobody would ask you to do anything. Quote Im sorry but im afraid you may have missed what maadmax's point was. Love my freind, love never failed. Everything Jesus taught was how to love from the heart. Not jumping off mountains to prove Gods existance, that has nothing to do with love. I'm sorry, my friend, you completely missed the point of discussion. We are not talking about what you should or should not do. We are talking about existence of the God. "We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
