An Atheist Speaks

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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>No Christian is going to say that salvation is found elsewhere.

"But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror . . ." (1 Cor 13)

We are still children in our understanding, and see the truth only poorly. I think the primary difference between you and I is that I don't think I have perfect understanding; indeed, no one does. Thus I cannot say that there is only one road to salvation (or, indeed, only one salvation.)

I sincerely hope you dont think that I have perfect understanding. I follow Jesus, Jesus gave his life for the Gospel. The Gospel speaks of Heaven and Hell, satan and God, good and evil, those who are perishing, those who are not. It also talks about the end of the world and the 2nd coming of Christ. It tells how we should be the Gospel ourselves, by treating one another not only the way we want to be treated, but with the same love we have receieved. Jesus hanging on the cross was an example of Gods love for us, it is deep, it is full of mercy and understanding, it is powerful. It does not say, nor even hint that salvation can be found outside of Jesus. It says that salvation is for God to give, either we accept it, or we take our chances. Either we take the mercy of Jesus, or the justice of God. There is so much to say about this, I cannot put it in this. But, the point is, while you believe it is me who is off a bit in my understanding of the Gospel, it is not me who you believe is off, but God.

I want the truth to tell me that everyone good and evil will go to Heaven, that we all just do whatever we like, have no guilt, no shame, and all still make it to see our loved ones in spirit for eternity. I love the love of God, so I can quite possibly see this happening, but, the truth tells me that is not the case at all. That there is good and evil, that there is a judgement and condemnation, that there is slavery and freedom. So how am I doing anyone any favors by not telling the whole truth of the same message which saved me? Compassion for someone often means you have to tell them something they dont want to hear, especially at the expense of them not liking you. It is the Gospel I serve, the message of the love of God for the light of life. The truth is there are those who will not repent their sins and therefore they will not find this life, they will instead find judgement and even condemnation in hell.

Not one decent human being wants that to be the case. Jesus certainly doesnt, God wants everyone to come to repentance, but his justice is firm and his word has gone out. Repent and become born again or perish. The questions are; why are we so afraid of repentance? If this is not the truth, then why did Jesus have to die? If you know salvation is through the cross, why would you look elsewhere? The Gospel is firm. Life for those who accept it, death and hell for those who do not.

This is the foundation of my spiritual path, and it fills me with greif at times knowing the power of deception and ignorance. This is where I direct most of my time and attention. Everything that I have learned (you believe to be perfect understanding), has come from the Gospel and I must say that it has not all been easy to accept, but the revelations I recieved along the path have more than sustained me, the revelations I am sharing with you now.

Man should have a strong fear of God in order to find the greater gifts of humbleness, trust, and love. When our fear of God goes beyond being afraid, then we find trust in him. When a man finds trust in God, he finds a deep deep spiritual love. A love so unexplainable, so fulfilling, I cant even begin to explian the hunger it brings. Once a man has been humbled by God and filled with his love, mercy, and forgiveness, there is a stronger sense of understanding in regards to what Grace actually is. It is in the spirit of grace that I found the foundation of my understanding.

A man has to learn the power of repentance, there is fear of failure meets the courage and strength of the heart; there is the final battle between evils hold on our souls and the freedom Jesus died to give us. It is the one hold that death has on us and the only way to life. It is not about being sin free, but more about seeing the truth. Once the truth is revealed we begin to see what it is that we truly want and it is in that desire that the life found in righteousness begins to reveal itself. In essence, good just feels good, we see righteousness as a gift and not a burden. But again, all this is in Gods time, we have to go through the flames to be refined by fire. In my life, it was everything I thought I loved that found me dying. No one comes to repentance without being broken, no one comes to get healed without being sick. Hope is the last refuge, thank goodness for us, it is also the power of God.

Something to consider, is that the wisdom that Jesus revealed to us, goes against how we as humans would natually respond. Clearly, the wisdom he brought came from another place in our hearts. A place we can reach, but have to learn. This is the essence to why we are here, to learn righteousness, to be transformed into Jesus, the living, human, God of Righteousness and to live with him for eternity whereever he is. What we didnt know is that righteousness only comes from a heart that is full of love, and that is not possible unless we believe how much we are loved. In this regard, we are children of God. We have been humbled, born, and loved and it is in this "context" that Paul wrote that scripture in 1 corin 13. We are not only children in the way we understand things, we are Gods children in the way we understand things.

Its in this understanding that we could continue a conversation, but in regards to Jesus being the only way, the Gospel is very clear and firm about that, it may just take more time for you to accept it. I feel like I could write forever on this, but I am afraid that I may have lost you already. I am truly sorry if you believe I have found perfect understanding, I have only found what was given to me, so in actuality, it is what was given to me that found me.

"We didn't start the fire"

[maadmax 0]

Time exists within the universe, not the other way around.

The universe is eternal.***

For lack of silly arguments I will assume you define "Universe" like every one else. When the fabric of space/time is condensed by increased gravity, like at an event horizon time slows significantly. If the theory of General Relativity is correct when space is infinitely condensed as in the pre big bang era, time does not exist. Stating that mindless forces continuously reingnite the universal creative process in a cyclic fashion producing what we see today, takes pure unfounded faith of the highest order.

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[maadmax 0]

If they say that they see a flower as evidence of God, then that is accurate according to the dictionary definition of "evidence." ("A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment." or "Something indicative; an outward sign."

But then I can say that seeing a flower as evidence of NO God is also accurate according to dictionary definition of "evidence."

To me, it might not be evidence of God, but to them it is, because it helped them come to the conclusion that there is a God.
That's why not all evidence is considered acceptable .***

Humanity is unique from the rest of the animal kingdom in that we gather up tangible and intangible facts to create a reality used to order our lives and societies. Tangible facts can come from places like scientific discovery. Intangible facts require faith in a value system. If the value system is true it will produce predictable favorable results. The evidence that the object of ones faith is true is in those reproducible favorable outcomes. Our evidence that faith in God is true is the results it produces in the believers life.

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[jcd11235 0]

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Stating that mindless forces continuously reingnite the universal creative process in a cyclic fashion producing what we see today, takes pure unfounded faith of the highest order.

Actually, cosmologists use observation and mathematics. They are aware that they don't have all the pieces yet. That's why there are competing theories explaining the observed phenomena they do have.

Besides, who claimed the universe was mindless? I'm a part of the universe, as are you and everybody else. I'm not mindless, are you? We are part of a self-aware universe.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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Every morning, I have to have someone pull me out of bed and wipe the drool off my chin.

I suspected as much.

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If the answer is yes, then the possibility of something so superior to our physical and intellectual being is very possible.

So you're suggesting that God evolved on another planet?

Don

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Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Erroll 49]

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Matter cannot be eternal because of entropy.

Please, please, for the love of God, stop getting your science from creationist websites.

Better to rely on Skydiving websites?

[Mockingbird 0]

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The universe is, by its very nature, eternal.

"Prove it."

Eternal means to exist independently of time.

Time exists within the universe, not the other way around.

The universe is eternal.

Oh wonderful; let's not use the term eternal to mean "no beginning and no end" as it is usually thought to mean. Let's use a nuance of the word that is convenient for your atheistic worldview. Sheesh.

Nah, let's not. Instead let's talk about whether there was ever NO universe at all. Can you grasp that?

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Mockingbird 0]

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All the evidence you need for his existence is in logic.

Please present said logic.

I've given it; you rejected it. Why do you insist on arguing about it?

I rejected it because you did not reach a logical conclusion.

It was logical. You didn't like what the conclusion implied (a First Cause), so you decided to find fault with the premise, "The universe had a beginning." Funny how so many great scientific minds agree that the universe had a beginning... Einstein, Eddington, Hubble, Penzias, Wilson, Jastrow... It was Eddington who wrote: "Philosophically, the notion of a beginning of the present order of nature is repugnant to me.... I should like to find a genuine loophole."

By the way, where's all your observable, repeatable evidence for your faith in an eternal universe? Gee I wonder if it would pass muster in a courtroom.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[JackC 0]

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That's a pretty loose definition of evidence.

I didn't write the definition. And it's similar to a lot of words in that it has more than one meaning.

I know you didn't write it but nonetheless it is a pretty poor definition because anything can be used as evidence of anything. It is so broad that it loses all meaning and isn't what most people would understand by the word evidence. If trees are evidence of god, then spaghetti is evidence of the flying spaghetti monster. A pair of pliers is evidence of the tooth fairy. If people insist on being so loose with the definition of words, how the hell are we supposed to know what they are talking about?

I'll go with the definition that says "Evidence in its broadest sense includes anything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion". A tree does not help determine or demonstrate the truth of the statement "God exists". It does however demonstrate the truth of the statement "trees exist".

[Mockingbird 0]

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Matter cannot be eternal because of entropy.

Please, please, for the love of God, stop getting your science from creationist websites.

Haven't been to any creationist websites; sorry to disappoint. I know what entropy means and implies for the universe.

Read me

No thanks. Too technical for a non-scientist like me. How about a dictionary (American Heritage)?

ENTROPY
NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. en·tro·pies
1. Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work. 2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system. 3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message. 4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity. 5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.

Are you saying that matter, as a rule, doesn't deteriorate or "wind down" (as Robt. Jastrow put it in God and the Astronomers), implying that all matter has a beginning?

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[jakee 1,254]

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Using your mighty critical thinking skills, and the evolutionary theory, is there life in other solar systems?
I don't want to hear, "I don't know." No waffling. What does your critical thinking tell you. It's either yes or no.

I think there is, yes. Given the sheer size of the universe and number of planets out there the possiblility is overwhelming. I couldn't say for absolute definite though because as yet we haven't seen it.

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If the answer is yes, then the possibility of something so superior to our physical and intellectual being is very possible.

Ok, it's very possible. So what?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,254]

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No thanks. Too technical for a non-scientist like me. How about a dictionary (American Heritage)?

Fuck me - you've looked it up in a dictionary and now think you're well versed enough to have an argument about it?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[JackC 0]

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Read me

No thanks. Too technical for a non-scientist like me. How about a dictionary (American Heritage)?

Mockingbird, it is blatantly obvious that you do not understand entropy or the implication for the universe. Quite frankly, I am suprised you think a dictionary would be sufficient to grasp even the most basic understanding of the subject. I'm sure you'd complain if I read the dictionary definition of christian and decided I knew everything about christians and the implications for the world. If you are going to discuss this stuff you really should do your homework because you really do not seem to understand any of it. And please, learn from reputable scientific sources.

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Are you saying that matter, as a rule, doesn't deteriorate or "wind down" (as Robt. Jastrow put it in God and the Astronomers), implying that all matter has a beginning?

That depends. Some decays, others appear to be stable. I've not read Jastrow's book so I have no idea what he said but if you thought he said that entropy means that all matter must decay into non-matter, I think you are mistaken. Beware of pop-science books though, badly written ones can be misleading. And christian apologetic sources are virtually always misleading, usually intentionally so.

[Royd 0]

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Using your mighty critical thinking skills, and the evolutionary theory, is there life in other solar systems?
I don't want to hear, "I don't know." No waffling. What does your critical thinking tell you. It's either yes or no.

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I think there is, yes. Given the sheer size of the universe and number of planets out there the possiblility is overwhelming. I couldn't say for absolute definite though because as yet we haven't seen it.


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If the answer is yes, then the possibility of something so superior to our physical and intellectual being is very possible.

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Ok, it's very possible. So what?

Now, we are getting somewhere. Is it possible that this intellegence is such that we mere mortals do not have the ability to observe or measure it by our crude scientific methods?

[jakee 1,254]

Seriously, what are you getting at here?

If you're trying to build up to the idea that a god-like creature could have evolved on another planet then by extension you are admitting that evolution happens and the universe was not created by this 'god'. How does that gel with what you believe?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Shotgun 1]

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I know you didn't write it but nonetheless it is a pretty poor definition because anything can be used as evidence of anything.

True, and I wasn't arguing the logic of what some people see as evidence, only that they are using the word properly as it is defined in most dictionaries. It is evidence to them (even according to your definition), even if everyone else rejects it as evidence.

Now of course if they want you (or anyone else) to accept their evidence, then it will probably need to be stronger than "a tree is proof that there is a god." I was just pointing out that they are not wrong in the use of the word.

[TankBuster 0]

"The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a government program."

- Ronald Reagan

The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.

[jcd11235 0]

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Oh wonderful; let's not use the term eternal to mean "no beginning and no end" as it is usually thought to mean. Let's use a nuance of the word that is convenient for your atheistic worldview. Sheesh.

Even if we use "no beginning and no end," the logic still applies. BTW, I'm not an atheist. I simply don't believe in supernatural, intervening deities.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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It was logical.

No, it wasn't. You make the assumption that the universe could not have caused its own singularity, which it may well have done.

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You didn't like what the conclusion implied (a First Cause), so you decided to find fault with the premise, "The universe had a beginning." Funny how so many great scientific minds agree that the universe had a beginning... Einstein, Eddington, Hubble, Penzias, Wilson, Jastrow... It was Eddington who wrote: "Philosophically, the notion of a beginning of the present order of nature is repugnant to me.... I should like to find a genuine loophole."

You are still confusing the known universe with the universe. The former is a subset of the latter. Again, just because Einstein, et al, found the known universe to have emerged from a singularity does not indicate that the singularity formed spontaneously or was created supernaturally. If it did imply such a thing it would have very likely given cause for Einstein to abandon his non-belief in a personal god.

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By the way, where's all your observable, repeatable evidence for your faith in an eternal universe? Gee I wonder if it would pass muster in a courtroom.

Science doesn't have all the pieces, nor has anyone claimed they do. However, there is more evidence suggesting the possibility of a cyclic or oscillating universe than one created by a supernatural deity (for which there is zero evidence).

Have a look here and here.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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Read me

No thanks. Too technical for a non-scientist like me. How about a dictionary (American Heritage)?

ENTROPY
NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. en·tro·pies
1. Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work. 2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system. 3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message. 4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity. 5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.

Didn't you just accuse me of selectively using definitions to support my argument? It appears you are projecting.

Choosing to use a dictionary meaning of the word entropy instead of an actual explanation of the concept of entropy is an indicator that you really do not understand what entropy is. Here is a less technical explanation for a non-scientists. The explanation is not as precise or technical as the one to which JackC linked to, but more precise than your dictionary definition.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Mockingbird 0]

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No thanks. Too technical for a non-scientist like me. How about a dictionary (American Heritage)?

Fuck me - you've looked it up in a dictionary and now think you're well versed enough to have an argument about it?

No thanks... at all!!! That's the worst offer I've had in a long time.

You don't like the ordinary definitions of words, do you? You like to be able to tweak them until they suit your argument, right? I never claimed being well-versed at anything more advanced than the basics... so yes, I can argue with you about the basic concept that things in nature move from order to disorder. I see it all around me--- if it occurs without exception in the little things (things I can see), I assume (and trust science which has validated my own experience) that it happens without exception on a large scale.

The universe which is material moves toward disorder and will finally come to an end. Therefore it had a beginning.

~~** And for the edification of my fellow Christians here:

"The heavens and the earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away." (-Jesus)

"The grass withers; the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand forever." (-Isaiah) **~~

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Mockingbird 0]

See reply to jakee above.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[jcd11235 0]

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I never claimed being well-versed at anything more advanced than the basics... so yes, I can argue with you about the basic concept that things in nature move from order to disorder.

Would you care to provide examples? Let me start. If you fix yourself a glass of ice water and let it sit in a 70º room, the ice will melt.

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I see it all around me--- if it occurs without exception in the little things (things I can see), I assume (and trust science which has validated my own experience) that it happens without exception on a large scale.

Without exception? That's not true. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is very precise regarding where it applies.

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The universe which is material moves toward disorder and will finally come to an end. Therefore it had a beginning.

You realize that black holes have an extremely high level (some say maximum level) of entropy, right? And you know that black holes are likely the most analogous phenomena to the singularity of the known universe, right?

Your conclusion is not logical.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[SpeedRacer 1]

Black Holes mark the spots in the universe where God messed up.

He left too much stuff in one spot & broke a hole in the universe. Woopsie Daisey.

Maybe this was His first universe, so cut Him some slack.

Speed Racer
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[kallend 1,621]

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No thanks. Too technical for a non-scientist like me. How about a dictionary (American Heritage)?

Fuck me - you've looked it up in a dictionary and now think you're well versed enough to have an argument about it?

No thanks... at all!!! That's the worst offer I've had in a long time.

You don't like the ordinary definitions of words, do you? You like to be able to tweak them until they suit your argument, right?

HYPOCRISY! You want the "ordinary" definition, but you want to use it to make a scientific prediction. The only person doing any tweaking to suit their position is MOCKINGBIRD.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.