Fuck you American healthcare system

[akarunway 1]

Quote

Quote

I believe that I have the RESPONSIBILITY to plan for my future. I decide whether I retire nicely or live impoverished.

Without getting personal and strayin away from the subjecy how about poor old Akarunaway?

Where has that $43K investment gone?

These HSA accounts seem better than insurance in some ways but If you can't afford what you need you are fucked.

Seems like a selfish system to me, that is my main problem with it.

Poor ole akarunway is "Leaving for Las Vegas" I wanna see how many casinos I can get kicked out of. The record now stands at 1 casino, 2 states, 1 country, 1 dz, many bars,. I'm gonna do my best to better it. In the meantime I'll just keep sewing myself up although the insurance is current. Til I tell my boss to go fuck himself in the morning.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

Quote

What is preferable? A doctor who doesn't understand the system but understands medicine?

Or a doctor who understands system but not the medicine?

I believe I know how the socialist would answer.

I believe they should know both!

I asked which one you would prefer. You did not answer,

Quote

without such knowledge they should not be practicing and/or the system is too complex.

Skilled doctors who shouldn't be practicing because of a crazy system? Okay. You DID answer it. You would rather a doctor know the system than know medicine.

Quote

Especially in the US system where yoou have rediculous over the top litigation claims to worry about. (well maybe not you personally, they are good for your profession)

I cut my teeth defending doctors in malpractice. I believe it is in need of drastic overhaul.

Quote

Quote

I know. The government takes it from you before you even see it. That means you can worry about having to pay for other things.

Are you kidding, you guys pay far more, get less

Not me. I get what I pay for, except for my tax dollars.

Quote

and all the money goes into the bank accounts and investments of large corporations rather than building and maintaining infrastucture and providing services that help provide a healthyountry/economy.

Replace "corporations" with "governments" and the statement still holds true.

Quote

Quote

Off of SOME people's shoulders. As for me, I like the thought of knowing that I can go to the doctor, pay the doctor, get treated by the doctor and be gone.

I have to go to the doctor today, I havn't made an appointment, I will have to wait about 45 minutes and then I will be gone. I don't have to bring my wallet, just a medicare card. (I am in Australia).

Awesome. I waited. Then I changed doctors because I didn't like it. My new doctor likes me. I've never waited more than 5 minutes before being called back.

Quote

I havn't even paid a cent yet for medicare as the tax year has not finished.

Oh. So you will. Actually, you paid for this year's last year. You've given the govt. an interest-free loan for the last year.

Quote

The system is different here, but it is still free to use, Tax pays for it.

And you pay the tax. you-->govt--->healthcare. With the govt. skimming off the top.

me-->doctor. How about that?

Quote

What is the mean income tax % inthe USA?

Too much. And they can't balance the budget, anyway.

Quote

All those tanks, guns and aeroplanes are not free?

No, but they're cool.

Quote

Where does that moeney come from. not to stray away from the subject but that seems rather socialised to me.

Yes. It is. Socialized.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kbordson 8]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I believe that I have the RESPONSIBILITY to plan for my future. I decide whether I retire nicely or live impoverished.

Without getting personal and strayin away from the subjecy how about poor old Akarunaway?

Poor ole akarunway is "Leaving for Las Vegas" I wanna see how many casinos I can get kicked out of. The record now stands at 1 casino, 2 states, 1 country, 1 dz, many bars,. I'm gonna do my best to better it. In the meantime I'll just keep sewing myself up although the insurance is current. Til I tell my boss to go fuck himself in the morning.

OK.... Rhys... care to comment on this?

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Quote

I know. The government takes it from you before you even see it. That means you can worry about having to pay for other things.

Are you kidding, you guys pay far more, get less and all the money goes into the bank accounts and investments of large corporations rather than building and maintaining infrastucture and providing services that help provide a healthyountry/economy.

QFT

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

it is still free to use, Tax pays for it

this is the best

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Opie 0]

Quote

Quote

it is still free to use, Tax pays for it

this is the best

I hope you mean the best as in funny! Out of this thread of 580 posts I have to say that's the funniest thing I've read

[PLFXpert 0]

Quote

I hope you mean the best as in funny!

Yes.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[kbordson 8]

Quote

Quote

What is preferable? A doctor who doesn't understand the system but understands medicine?

Or a doctor who understands system but not the medicine?

I believe I know how the socialist would answer.

I believe they should know both! without such knowledge they should not be practicing and/or the system is too complex. Especially in the US system where yoou have rediculous over the top litigation claims to worry about. (well maybe not you personally, they are good for your profession)

Is that your prediction.

Quote

Quote

What is preferable? A doctor who doesn't understand the system but understands medicine?

Or a doctor who understands system but not the medicine?

I believe I know how the socialist would answer.

I believe they should know both! without such knowledge they should not be practicing and/or the system is too complex. Especially in the US system where yoou[sic] have rediculous[sic] over the top litigation claims to worry about. (well maybe not you personally, they are good for your profession)

Is that your prediction.

OK... which of these plans should I know? There are 330 on the list. Should I only learn the Missouri ones. That is still 11 seperate companies. Each with probably at least 3 different types of policies (HMO, PPO and standard). And within each of those policies there are different deductibles and different levels of coverage.

That's why I have office staff. They call the insurance to clarify coverage for the patient. But.... what about patient responsibility? As a customer, you decide what parts you like and which ones you don't want/need. You choose high deductible for low monthly or limited access with an HMO. But... as the customer, YOU decide what works best for your budget. Is it confusing? HELL YES. I think I've already mentioned that. But.... trust me, your system is a lot more complicated than you give it credit for. You just don't want to learn about it so therefore it's "easy." If there's a two tiered system.... it's complicated. Is it easier than the US system? Probably. But by switching our system to socialized won't make it easy. Medicare is our version of socialized medicine and that has different plans and supplemental coverage options and all kinds of twists.

Personally... I would rather that my OB/Gyn know more about OB/Gyn than about being an insurance salesmam/woman.

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

I have to go to the doctor today, I havn't made an appointment, I will have to wait about 45 minutes and then I will be gone. I don't have to bring my wallet, just a medicare card. (I am in Australia).

I was in San Francisco last year, and felt sick. Only had 30 minutes in the morning. Called several doctors around for an appointment on a short notice, the fourth office called me back and said the doctor agreed to come to the office earlier to see me. And I didn't pay anything since I've got two health insurances, and both of them are paid by our employers (we pay about 50 bucks extra for both, pre-tax).

Quote

I havn't even paid a cent yet for medicare as the tax year has not finished.

Well, let's compare how much you spend when the year _is_ finished.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rhys 0]

Quote

Well, let's compare how much you spend when the year _is_ finished.

Not too sure here yet but in NZ ACC is about 6% of your earnings if you are a commercial skydiver. The % is based on liability, determined from the statistics of previous injuries in that field.

My average income for the last 4 years there has been around NZ$50000 so I guess in a I pay circa NZ$3000 anually/or 4 work jumps a month.

Our income tax is for the most part between 20% - 35%. that pays for many services and infrastructure.

Including education, heatlth, infrustructure, emergency services, environment, military....

Notice military is way down the list.

We also pay ACC levies when we drive on the road and purchase petrol. That covers the road (and other)accidents that have nothing to do with Commercial activity, as well as the ones that do.

I'll have to wait and see how much it costs here but I can't ever remember anyone talking about it so it couldn't be too much of a concern.

I'll find out.

Everyone is catered for (residents and citizens).

In the USA at presen, those in need are considered to be un-organised or stupid? they are outcast and many become homeless............

The one true fundemental problem with most problems we face in 'the world' today is Human Nature.

We would have to balance our greed and our goodwill and only then we should be able to co-exist without a problem.

Why dont we?

Greed and selfishness.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Amazon 7]

Well one good thing.. is you actually get something for what you pay in. I was very impressed when I was there.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

Not too sure here yet but in NZ ACC is about 6% of your earnings if you are a commercial skydiver. The % is based on liability, determined from the statistics of previous injuries in that field.

My average income for the last 4 years there has been around NZ$50000 so I guess in a I pay circa NZ$3000 anually/or 4 work jumps a month.

As a healthy person who can't bear children, I'd pay about $1200/year for private health insurance.

Quote

Our income tax is for the most part between 20% - 35%. that pays for many services and infrastructure.

Including education, heatlth, infrustructure, emergency services, environment, military....

The median effective federal tax rate (including all taxes - income, social security, payroll, excise) is under 15% in America.

Here are some numbers from 2005. Listed are the mean effective tax rate and upper cut-off for each income quintile.

Lowest quintile: 4.3 19178
Second quintile: 9.9 36000
Middle quintile: 14.2 57660
Fourth quintile: 17.4 91705
Highest quintile: 25.5

Effective income tax rates are much lower. In 2003 the effective tax rates were -5.9%, -1.1 (poor people get tax credits, with everything above their tax liability refunded when they file a return) 2.7, 5.9, and 13.9% for each quintile averaging 8.5%.

What we spend on our mortgages isn't taxes, income from government bonds isn't taxed, dividends are only taxed at 15%, wages above $102K aren't subject to Fica, etc.

This doesn't include what our children will be paying as interest on the debt, since taxes fall short of covering what our government spends.

Quote

In the USA at presen, those in need are considered to be un-organised or stupid?

They walk into the nearest emergency room which is legally required to treat them if they're in need of emergency care. If they're actually poor and just didn't want to pay for health insurance, states' indigent care programs take care of them. If not, bill collectors try to collect.

The problem here is that they have to wait for it to be an emergency, which costs more to fix than if we dealt with people before they got that bad.

[rhys 0]

Quote

As a healthy person who can't bear children, I'd pay about $1200/year for private health insurance.

If you don't mind me asking how much do you earn per year?

Or what % of your income does that end up being?

Quote

Effective income tax rates are much lower. In 2003 the effective tax rates were -5.9%, -1.1 (poor people get tax credits, with everything above their tax liability refunded when they file a return) 2.7, 5.9, and 13.9% for each quintile averaging 8.5%.

I don't exactly know what a quintile is but we have these sort of tax deductions also.

Quote

They walk into the nearest emergency room which is legally required to treat them if they're in need of emergency care. If they're actually poor and just didn't want to pay for health insurance, states' indigent care programs take care of them. If not, bill collectors try to collect.

Quote

The problem here is that they have to wait for it to be an emergency, which costs more to fix than if we dealt with people before they got that bad.

Preventative medicine is the best medicine, but unfortunately it doesn't fit in many budgets.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

Not too sure here yet but in NZ ACC is about 6% of your earnings if you are a commercial skydiver.

Your health insurance rate in California (don't know about the rest of US) does not depend on whether you're skydiver or not. There are no such questions even in the individual application.

For my family, our two pretty good health insurances, each covering the whole family - which means we usually pay nothing for everything except drugs and some lab tests - would cost us less than 4% of our income if we paid for them (we do, but it is mostly reimbursed). If we compare what we actually pay, it is 0.027% of our income.

Quote

My average income for the last 4 years there has been around NZ$50000 so I guess in a I pay circa NZ$3000 anually/or 4 work jumps a month.

Our income tax is for the most part between 20% - 35%. that pays for many services and infrastructure.

Well, now you see the difference. Our income last year was much, much higher, and our total income tax was still around 24%

Quote

Including education, heatlth, infrustructure, emergency services, environment, military....

Same, but includes (subjective) better education, better healthcare _for me_, probably better infrastructure and obviously better military. Honestly I didn't even know NZ has serious military, or at least anything like DARPA.

Quote

In the USA at presen, those in need are considered to be un-organised or stupid? they are outcast and many become homeless............

This is very broad definition of "those in need". I'm sure Buffett and Gates are in need - and, really, their needs are much more difficult to satisfy than, for example, mine.
If, however, you're talking about basic needs (like basic food, education, shelter and healthcare), the things will be different.

1. Food. I personally didn't hear about poor people who're starving in U.S. Honestly I more hear about obesity. In California food stamps are given to anyone who qualifies in terms of income, and has legal status. I assume it isn't worse than in NZ.

2. Education. Public schools are free for everyone, including even those who do not have legal status (again, in California - might be different in other states). It might be not the best, but I assume it isn't worse than in NZ either.

3. Shelter. Tough issue. The problem is not that there are no enough room to live, but that too many people wants to live in one place when there is not enough room for all of them (like Manhattan or San Francisco). There is a program (so-called "section 9"), which pays part of rent, but it doesn't work well in those cases, because it is just not enough room for everyone. This problem exists in most countries, and of course New Zealand has it as well. Wellington city even made their Homeless stratery available on their web site, so I assume this problem is known enough for the general public to be discussed and plans published by the city council. So it's probably the same.

4. Healthcare - if a poor person has a job, they most likely have healthcare through their employer. If they do not have a job and no money, they go to emergency room, and get a free healthcare there. Again, in California families could qualify for Medical, which is state-sponsored health insurance program, and there are also several free clinics which provide free healthcare to those
who have no insurance. But we're not paying 6% of our income for it.

Quote

The one true fundemental problem with most problems we face in 'the world' today is Human Nature.
We would have to balance our greed and our goodwill and only then we should be able to co-exist without a problem.
Why dont we?

We do. But there will be always someone who will say you could do more. After all, if you have any money to put on your savings account at the end of month - someone could say could have helped poor better. Instead of buying a new container you could help starving children in Africa. You could share a room in your apartment with homeless people. Like Bill and Melinda Gates give out $50M - hey, they could have given $100M, after all Bill Gates has $60B!

There is always something you _could_ do, and there will be always someone claiming you _should_ do it. Who should set the limit? I think, everyone should set limits for themselves. You think, the government should set limits for everyone. Both ways work, but neither is perfect.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rhys 0]

http://www.stats.govt.nz/products-and-services/nz-in-the-oecd/education.htm

This is what I could find on New Zealand education,

While looking for The US equivelant of this information I found it much more difficult and I decided that your comments about the quality of the education and life were false when I saw the statistics on the subject classified by skin colour (Black, White , Hispanic etc.). Rather than Ethnic group or religon. That would not be tolerated in New Zealand and such blatant racism has been eliminated from the govornment decades ago.

I need not search any more.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

http://www.stats.govt.nz/products-and-services/nz-in-the-oecd/education.htm
This is what I could find on New Zealand education,

Could you please comment it, since you find it? Looks pretty meaningless to me.
And could you please tell us how many Nobel laureates are there who studied in New Zealand?

Quote

While looking for The US equivelant of this information I found it much more difficult and I decided that your comments about the quality of the education and life were false when I saw the statistics on the subject classified by skin colour (Black, White , Hispanic etc.).

You also conviniently ignored Asians, Native Americans, Middle Easterns - why? Doesn't it fit into your "skin color" statement, or there was another reason?
By the way, "hispanic" is not a skin color.

Quote

Rather than Ethnic group or religon.

Blacks, white-not hispanics, Asians, Pacific Islanders, Native Americans - aren't those ethnic groups?

Could you also tell me how religion fits into statistics on the subject?

Quote

That would not be tolerated in New Zealand and such blatant racism has been eliminated from the govornment decades ago.

So you're telling us it's fine for a New Zealand government to classify people based on religion and ethnic group ("black muslim", "orthodox jews", "slavic christians"), and this is not racism? But mentioning a person race/ethnic group alone is?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[warpedskydiver 0]

It may be discrimination, not racism.

To discriminate is to notice a difference.

To use discrimination as a basis for unfair treatment is racism.

[verticalflier 0]

Very well said TK. I would also add that with all the $$$ US health insurance companies make they should pay for all our jumps too.

[jpjc2000 0]

https://members.kaiserpermanente.org/kpweb/historykp/entrypage.do

The system today has morphed from these roots. It was a dog chasing the tail system because of money.

Before health insurance, the doctor or hospital would bill the client, and they would pay on time or in cash. Most bills got paid, nobody got rich.

When the Kaiser plan started, doctors and hospitals quickly realized they could charge more to the insurance company and get paid. Clients realized they could go to the doctor or hospital for everything and anything, and the medical community encouraged it...because of...money.

And so the cycle of the system we have in place today started.

[kbordson 8]

It's not all the fault of the insurance companies though.

When I was in the military (a version of socialized medicine), some of the dependent wives were VERY PROUD of how thick her medical record was (with no real medical problems.) It made me sad and a bit annoyed to hear them brag about it.

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

When I was in the military (a version of socialized medicine), some of the dependent wives were VERY PROUD of how thick her medical record was (with no real medical problems.) It made me sad and a bit annoyed to hear them brag about it.

It's also very typical for Russia, which has socialized/free healthcare. Every time you go see a doctor, you'll see 3 people there, and 2 of them have no real medical problem. Worse, people abusing specialists as well - it's common to go directly to otolaringologist if you have a running nose or sore throat. And a mom whose son got a splinter, goes directly to the surgeon.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rhys 0]

Quote

You also conviniently ignored Asians, Native Americans, Middle Easterns - why? Doesn't it fit into your "skin color" statement, or there was another reason?
By the way, "hispanic" is not a skin color.


Blacks, white-not hispanics, Asians, Pacific Islanders, Native Americans - aren't those ethnic groups?

Could you also tell me how religion fits into statistics on the subject?

Black and white are not ethnic groups. To think they are is unintellegent.

You can be white and African, you can be black and english, you can look asian and be a third generation unted states citizen with white parents. Where do you draw the line?

Classification by skin colour is ignorant.

Quote

So you're telling us it's fine for a New Zealand government to classify people based on religion and ethnic group ("black muslim", "orthodox jews", "slavic christians"), and this is not racism? But mentioning a person race/ethnic group alone is?

You will find it hard to find many people classified by skin colour in New Zealand. It is against the law.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

Black and white are not ethnic groups. To think they are is inintellegent.

Did you see I mentioned Hispanics in my reply?
Did you see I mentioned Native Americans? Middle Easterns?
Do you think they all are not ethnic groups?
And why do you think blacks cannot be considered an ethnic group?

Quote

You can be white and African, you can be black and english, you can look asian and be a third generation unted states citizen with white parents. Where do you draw the line?

You draw the line where you (and general public) consider it useful.

Quote

Classification by skin colour is ignorant.

Classification by religion is even more ignorant.

Quote

You will find it hard to find many people classified by skin colour in New Zealand. It is against the law.

So could you tell us what ethnic group a black couple belongs to in New Zealand?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rhys 0]

Quote

It's not all the fault of the insurance companies though.

For sure, they were simply allowed to take the industry to where it is now.

Quote

When I was in the military (a version of socialized medicine), some of the dependent wives were VERY PROUD of how thick her medical record was (with no real medical problems.) It made me sad and a bit annoyed to hear them brag about it.

Greed will find its way into any system.

Keeping that greed under control is the problem.

The non-socialised system only invests a small proportion of the money generated specifically for medicine, into medicine. The rest of the investment is lost to private eneterprise. back to greed again....

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

Quote

So could you tell us what ethnic group a black couple belongs to in New Zealand?

That depends where they are from.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix