Armed Teachers in Schools

[JohnRich 4]

News:

Counselors' heroism foils terror attack in high school

In Jerusalem, two Palestinian gunmen wearing IDF uniforms burst into a high school.

The terrorists infiltrated and entered a library room where seven of the boarding school's counselors were meeting. Dressed as security guards, and armed with a knife and what appeared to be a gun -- it later turned out to be a toy -- ordered the seven to line up on one side of the room. A counselor, realizing they were terrorists, drew his personal firearm and opened fire. The terrorists managed to stab two of the counselors before falling dead.

At the same time, the study hall -- adjacent to the library -- was packed with students.

Source: IsraelInsider

We sure wouldn't want any American teachers to go around armed in school like this - someone might get hurt!

[kallend 1,621]

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News:

Counselors' heroism foils terror attack in high school

A counselor, realizing they were terrorists, drew his personal firearm and opened fire. The terrorists managed to stab two of the counselors before falling dead.



We sure wouldn't want any American teachers to go around armed in school like this - someone might get hurt!

Was it a counselor or a teacher? Make up your mind.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[juanesky 0]

whoooosh!, Not a surprise there professor.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Botellines 0]

I think it is an excelent idea because we all know that one gun is a problem but two is the solution.
Why stopping at that? Janitors, bus drivers and honor students should get a gun each as well. Of course the principal (due to his responsability) should get no less than a bazooka.
In the other hand, if instead of guns to the teachers we give them tazers, they would have the ideal tool to motivate the lazier students.

Is there anything you wouldn´t solve with a gun?

[ExAFO 0]

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Is there anything you wouldn´t solve with a gun?

Is there anything violent you wouldn't solve with a cookie, a warm mug of cocoa, and asking the nice person on a rampage to calmly discuss their motivations?

Oh wait, you wouldn't get that chance. You'd be dead from their rampage.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[AWL71 0]

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I think it is an excelent idea because we all know that one gun is a problem but two is the solution.
Why stopping at that? Janitors, bus drivers and honor students should get a gun each as well. Of course the principal (due to his responsability) should get no less than a bazooka.
In the other hand, if instead of guns to the teachers we give them tazers, they would have the ideal tool to motivate the lazier students.

Is there anything you wouldn´t solve with a gun?

No, guns provide great solutions unlike your namby pamby feel good solve nothing "diplomacy."

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[freeflydrew 0]

Teachers having guns is a stupid idea. If schools are concerned about the safety of the students, they should hire security guards, invest in a video surveillance system and do a better job of limiting visitors access to buildings and grounds during school hours.

I work at a school and this is the approach of most of the schools around the NYC area.

Teachers are educators, not security guards. If a teacher has to carry a gun to protect themselves or their students, there is a much bigger problem with that school.

[rehmwa 2]

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Teachers are educators, not security guards. If a teacher has to carry a gun to protect themselves....

I had no idea that teachers were some unique race from another planet and not like regular people.....

How about this? Let's pretend teachers are just individuals and should be able to decide for themselves if they'd like get the training and own - or not own - private property of various kinds.

I offer this to replace strawman arguments that propose forcing everybody to have guns, and those that take them away completely from everybody.

Wow, we could do that for anybody, not matter what job they do.....

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mnealtx 0]

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Teachers having guns is a stupid idea. If schools are concerned about the safety of the students, they should hire security guards, invest in a video surveillance system and do a better job of limiting visitors access to buildings and grounds during school hours.

I work at a school and this is the approach of most of the schools around the NYC area.

Teachers are educators, not security guards. If a teacher has to carry a gun to protect themselves or their students, there is a much bigger problem with that school.

How well did those guards work at Columbine? How about Virginia Tech - how effective were they there?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Andy9o8 0]

A value judgment needs to be made, comparing the risk of a teacher carrying a gun in school (such as the gun getting stolen in school or him getting overpowered by a group of students and the gun taken from him), versus the chances that the teacher may need to use it to ward off an armed attack. In Israel, there is, historically (as well as statistically), a sufficiently high enough risk of terrorist attack against a soft target like a school that teachers often carry guns. So in order to make a useful comparison, one would need to evaluate the risk of an armed attack in a U.S. school, which may very well vary greatly from one school to another. As an aside, it can be assumed that virtually every Israeli teacher has had military service, and thus has a fairly high level of training in handling a firearm in a "situation" in the field.

[freeflydrew 0]

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How well did those guards work at Columbine? How about Virginia Tech - how effective were they there?

Yeah, we all know that in those 2 examples, kids shot up other students... but I really doubt that school violence is actually increasing, or that it warrants teachers carrying guns, and would like to see statistics proving otherwise.

Again, I believe that teachers are there to educate students. It's the job of the institution to protect it's community... 2 different sets of responsibilities. thats why many schools in high crime areas have metal detectors at the doors and guards sometimes armed instead of teachers with weapons.

[Douva 0]

Quote

News:

Counselors' heroism foils terror attack in high school

In Jerusalem, two Palestinian gunmen wearing IDF uniforms burst into a high school.

The terrorists infiltrated and entered a library room where seven of the boarding school's counselors were meeting. Dressed as security guards, and armed with a knife and what appeared to be a gun -- it later turned out to be a toy -- ordered the seven to line up on one side of the room. A counselor, realizing they were terrorists, drew his personal firearm and opened fire. The terrorists managed to stab two of the counselors before falling dead.

At the same time, the study hall -- adjacent to the library -- was packed with students.

Source: IsraelInsider

We sure wouldn't want any American teachers to go around armed in school like this - someone might get hurt!

I'm amused that the people who think it's a bad idea are quick to respond with sarcasm but slow to respond with facts supporting their assertion that it's a bad idea.

This isn't page isn't exactly arguing for arming teachers, but the facts presented are still relevant:

http://www.ConcealedCampus.org/arguments.htm

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Douva 0]

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but I really doubt that school violence is actually increasing, or that it warrants teachers carrying guns, and would like to see statistics proving otherwise.

In a free society, the burden of prove is not on those seeking a right, to show that granting the right will make things better; the burden of proof is on those seeking the denial of that right, to show that granting the right will make things worse.

What evidence do you have that allowing trained, licensed teachers to carry guns, much like they do in Israel, would make things any worse at U.S. schools?

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[BillyVance 34]

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Teachers having guns is a stupid idea. If schools are concerned about the safety of the students, they should hire security guards, invest in a video surveillance system and do a better job of limiting visitors access to buildings and grounds during school hours.

I work at a school and this is the approach of most of the schools around the NYC area.

Teachers are educators, not security guards. If a teacher has to carry a gun to protect themselves or their students, there is a much bigger problem with that school.

I agree. Having guns in school is a bad idea and already illegal here. I remember one incident in my high school when I was a senior back in the 1985-86 school-year. My English teacher was standing and teaching a class when he noticed some dude that did not look like he belonged in the school walk by his classroom. He told the class "excuse me for a second" and walked out to question the intruder. Well the intruder pushed him off and tried to flee but the teacher just took him down and subdued him until help and police arrived. We found out later that he was a wanted man from Illinois for assault and drugs.

Word spread after that "don't fuck with the English teacher" We also started locking all exterior doors from the outside (you could still get out, but not back in) after that.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[rehmwa 2]

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A value judgment needs to be made, comparing the risk of a teacher carrying ........versus the chances that the teacher may need to........ In Israel, there is, historically ......... school that teachers often carry guns........a useful comparison, one would need to evaluate.........As an aside, it can be assumed that virtually every Israeli teacher has had military service, and thus has a fairly high level of training in handling a firearm in a "situation" in the field.

yes, yes, it's very complicated and we need to assess it to death in order for big brother to decide if joe teacher should be "allowed" to carry his own property around with him...

Why is everyone here acting like it's their choice, or the government's choice to tell a private citizen whether or not they have the right to carry their private property around with them?

it's nuts

I don't much care whether someone carries a gun or a knife, or a ball point pen around with them regardless of whatever their job is.

I'm more concerned about how well their dad's taught them to use a gun properly and with the right level of respect - versus whether they are indoctrinated to be terrified of an inanimate object through ignorance and nonsensical propoganda and couldn't hold an empty gun without a case of the shakes.

But even then, that has to be assessed one person at a time and not with some blanket law based forced on everybody.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[christelsabine 1]

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What evidence do you have that allowing trained, licensed teachers to carry guns, much like they do in Israel, would make things any worse at U.S. schools?

Yes. Sure. Arm teachers. What do they give to/teach your kids? Arm yourself. Be always armed. Where does it end? "An eye for an eye ... until everybody's blind.."

What a poor society - if there's no other prevention than guns.

That's a goal??

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[rehmwa 2]

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I agree. Having guns in school is a bad idea and already illegal here.....

I remember one incident .......My English teacher .......took him down and subdued him until help and police arrived. We found out later that he was a wanted man from Illinois for assault and drugs...

you agree with drew's position to ban teacher's from protecting the school and then give an example of a teacher that was capable and willing to do just that and did it responsibly and well.

???

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Yes. Sure. Arm teachers.

nonsense, no one says use tax money to purposely arm teachers. this strawhorse is such an old tangent.......

only allowing teachers or anybody else for that matter, as individuals, to make their own choice about what they want to do with their private property

a more productive discussion in any of this is talking about licensing and training, not banning vs force-arming

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Douva 0]

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Quote

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What evidence do you have that allowing trained, licensed teachers to carry guns, much like they do in Israel, would make things any worse at U.S. schools?

Yes. Sure. Arm teachers. What do they give to/teach your kids? Arm yourself. Be always armed. Where does it end? "An eye for an eye ... until everybody's blind.."

What a poor society - if there's no other prevention than guns.

That's a goal??

If you think self-defense is the same as vengeance, you're already blind.

When Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye makes everyone blind," he was not referring to self-defense or guns.

He was, however, referring to self-defense and guns when he said, “Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

Apparently even Gandhi realized there is a time when force must be met with force.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Amazon 7]

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A value judgment needs to be made, comparing the risk of a teacher carrying a gun in school (such as the gun getting stolen in school or him getting overpowered by a group of students and the gun taken from him), versus the chances that the teacher may need to use it to ward off an armed attack. In Israel, there is, historically (as well as statistically), a sufficiently high enough risk of terrorist attack against a soft target like a school that teachers often carry guns. So in order to make a useful comparison, one would need to evaluate the risk of an armed attack in a U.S. school, which may very well vary greatly from one school to another. As an aside, it can be assumed that virtually every Israeli teacher has had military service, and thus has a fairly high level of training in handling a firearm in a "situation" in the field.

I think there is a time coming very soon when our schools will be seen as VERY attractive "soft targets" by islamic radicals.. just as they are in Israel.

I like the idea of teachers who have the training being armed... because all the security guards at most schools are ill trained and ill equipped to handle any kind of concerted attack. I would feel our young would be a LOT safer with several Mr. Rasczak (Lt Rasczak in Starship troopers) type teachers in every American school than a bunch of freakin wanna be heroes working as rent a cop security guards.

[mnealtx 0]

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a bunch of freakin wanna be heros working as rent a cop security guards.

But, but... what about if they have a takedown 300 Win Mag and those sweet ninja wall-walking boots??

Sarcasm aside - all these school shootings have very limited outcome sets:

1. They are stopped by a person with a gun before they can shoot everyone.
2. They kill themselves when they no longer have easily available victims.

The problem with the security guard issue is that, once they're past that outer shell, they have a free selection of victims that have no effective way to stop the shooter.

Allowing trained, willing teachers to carry their person defense weapons in class is another layer of defense once they're past that 'shell'.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,621]

Teachers are not trained to be security guards, regardless of whether in their private lives they choose to be gun owners.

Maybe fire all the teachers and just have security guards teach classes too.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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Teachers are not trained to be security guards, regardless of whether in their private lives they choose to be gun owners.

Maybe fire all the teachers and just have security guards teach classes too.

you are completely off your game, your normal tangential nonsense usually has more flare - I have trust, though, it'll come back

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mnealtx 0]

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Teachers are not trained to be security guards, regardless of whether in their private lives they choose to be gun owners.

Maybe fire all the teachers and just have security guards teach classes too.

The principal at Pearl High School wasn't a trained security guard.

The armed students at the Appalachian Law School weren't trained security guards.

The restaurant owner that stopped the shooter at Edinboro, PA wasn't a trained security guard.

In Israel, teachers and parent aides are allowed to be armed, since a school massacre (25 killed, 66 injured) in Maalot. How many school shootings in Israel have you heard about since then?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,621]

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Teachers are not trained to be security guards, regardless of whether in their private lives they choose to be gun owners.

Maybe fire all the teachers and just have security guards teach classes too.

you are completely off your game, your normal tangential nonsense usually has more flare - I have trust, though, it'll come back

Which is more dangerous, a teacher with a gun but no tactical weapons training, or a security guard with a stick of chalk?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.