steve1 5
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kbordson 8
Per Mart (I couldn't get him to sign on and type this himself.... but this is per his knowledge)
Cryogenically treating bbls is modern day snake oil. Does not enhance accuracy in any way. No prove to show it is good, and there is one test by one of the ballistitians, Kevin Thomas of Sierra Bullets, printed in the September, 1998 issue of Precision Rifle that shows that is actually NOT helpful
What is your opinion of the deep cryogenic processing of barrels? (not the percision rifle article, but I can't seem to find it online)
Alloy question: Most barrels in the US are either 4140 carbon steel or 416R stainless steel.
Other recommendations to check the barrel
Shoot 10 shots fast, don't worry about accuracy. Just get the shots downrange. Then wait one min. After that, get behind the sights and shoot for score. Eval the pattern and see if it produces the same as noted in the first post. If yes, then possibly barrel related. (and if you need to replace that, Mart would recommend Gene Barnet or Kreigers)
Think about the bedding. M14's are not the most accurate due to relying on stock tension for accuracy. It would be nice to know if your bbl is bedded, how old is the bedding.
And from me.... having shot 1000 with the 14's and 16's, I would GLADLY lie behind the 16 ALL DAY LONG. The 14's (even with a good coat) would beat me black and blue. But it's been probably 10-15yrs since I shot service rifle competitively.
Cryogenically treating bbls is modern day snake oil. Does not enhance accuracy in any way. No prove to show it is good, and there is one test by one of the ballistitians, Kevin Thomas of Sierra Bullets, printed in the September, 1998 issue of Precision Rifle that shows that is actually NOT helpful
What is your opinion of the deep cryogenic processing of barrels? (not the percision rifle article, but I can't seem to find it online)
Alloy question: Most barrels in the US are either 4140 carbon steel or 416R stainless steel.
Other recommendations to check the barrel
Shoot 10 shots fast, don't worry about accuracy. Just get the shots downrange. Then wait one min. After that, get behind the sights and shoot for score. Eval the pattern and see if it produces the same as noted in the first post. If yes, then possibly barrel related. (and if you need to replace that, Mart would recommend Gene Barnet or Kreigers)
Think about the bedding. M14's are not the most accurate due to relying on stock tension for accuracy. It would be nice to know if your bbl is bedded, how old is the bedding.
And from me.... having shot 1000 with the 14's and 16's, I would GLADLY lie behind the 16 ALL DAY LONG. The 14's (even with a good coat) would beat me black and blue. But it's been probably 10-15yrs since I shot service rifle competitively.
Sneakerz 0
I want an Accuracy International .338 Lapua
(with the schmidt bender on top too :D)
Just a few grand short
(with the schmidt bender on top too :D)
Just a few grand short
---------------
"Once you find a job that you like, you never have to work another day in your life"
"Once you find a job that you like, you never have to work another day in your life"
steve1 5
QuoteI want an Accuracy International .338 Lapua
(with the schmidt bender on top too :D)
Just a few grand short
.....................................................................
There's some really nice custom rifles out there, that shoot really well. Kimber is one of my favorites. It's also unreal the price you have to pay now days for a custom rifle. You can customize a rifle yourself, and end up with a gun that shoots just as well. It may not be quite as pretty though.
Some off the shelf rifles shoot better than others. Remington and Savage are two good ones. I have a feather-weight Winchester which also shoots extremely well. Some guns you can customize all you want and they still won't shoot worth a darn. You need a good barrel and action to start with.
I usually end up buying a Remington rifle and then doing quite a bit of work to it. When I was a kid you could buy a Remington 700 BDL for around $135. I'm not sure why they cost so much now. Most of them are very accurate right out of the box.
I float the barrel down to where the chamber area, about the width of a thick piece of paper. On a slim barrel I might experiment with a shim under the fore-end of the stock. Mine shoot better that way. For an average barrel, I'll leave the whole thing free-floating.
Glass bedding the action area can make a big difference. I usually use a kit from Brownelle.
I used to adjust my own triggers. I usually send them off now. This can be tricky, and I really didn't know what I was doing. You really need a light crisp trigger for accuracy. Too light can be dangerous.
Putting a good scope on your rifle can make a big difference. I usually put a Leupold II on. Leupold III are even better, but they cost a lot more. There are many other good quality scopes. You usually get what you pay for. Don't waste money on a cheap scope.
Handloading is a key ingredient. Most rifles shoot best with a particular load. Or you can experiment with a variety of factory loads. I usually start out light, watching for pressure signs. Usually one load will shoot better than the others. You need to be very scientific on this. Use a good bench rest with sandbags. I usually test loads at 100 yards firing fives shot groups. There are many tricks to getting the right load.
Seating the bullet at just the right depth from the lands is a big trick for accuracy. You can't get that with factory ammo. Seat a bullet too far out and you won't be able to close your bolt. Or you can end up with a bullet stuck in your chamber. Not a good situation for hunting.
When everything comes together, all this is worth it. It's rewarding to end up with a rifle you can drive tacks with.
You could write a book on all this, and I know this is oversimplifying things. This is basically what I do. There's lot's of people who know more about this than I do. I'm still learning how to accurize a rifle....
A sharpie marker can do wonders for determining OAL.
Of course Mag fed weapons have the limitation of mag length.
Too close to the lands, or touching can cause pressure spikes.
Too far, and the bullet has to jump a gap.
Amazing how much can go into accuracy.
Ah yes the DNT screw on 700's and the like.
Do Not Touch = Sear engagment screw
jm951 0
One item to look for in ammo shot through a semi, and this would take some experiementation. Check the lateral runnout on your ammo prior to loading a 20 rd mag, record the runnout on each round. Shoot 15 rounds, check the runnout on the remaining 5. It may be that the recoil impulse is affecting the seating of the bullet. If so, it's easily corrected by changing setting of the seating dies.
One other variable to check, look at how your operating rod functions and check to see if it binds any as the rifle heats up. It would take some fiddling but there may be some issues with the gas cylinder as the weapon heats up that would affect accuracy.
Cryo treating is open for debate, some swear by it, some hate it. The main advantage I can see is that it "might" extend barrel life a bit.
One other variable to check, look at how your operating rod functions and check to see if it binds any as the rifle heats up. It would take some fiddling but there may be some issues with the gas cylinder as the weapon heats up that would affect accuracy.
Cryo treating is open for debate, some swear by it, some hate it. The main advantage I can see is that it "might" extend barrel life a bit.
Some people use dry moly in the gas tube of operating rod type actions.
DI has no need for such.
I like dry moly lube for the bolt and carrier.
It seems to be the best for being unaffected by cold weather.
I use a bit of moly grease on the rings.
DI has no need for such.
I like dry moly lube for the bolt and carrier.
It seems to be the best for being unaffected by cold weather.
I use a bit of moly grease on the rings.
Neck tension is critical, fine line between loose and too tight.
I have an understanding of reloading, and cannot wait to get a Dillion 650, I have a friend with a single stage for smaller reloading jobs.
Once I achieve consistancy I will be happy.
I will be very vigilant in periodic checking for QC
It's nice to have friends with huge amounts of experience to guide me.
I have an understanding of reloading, and cannot wait to get a Dillion 650, I have a friend with a single stage for smaller reloading jobs.
Once I achieve consistancy I will be happy.
I will be very vigilant in periodic checking for QC
It's nice to have friends with huge amounts of experience to guide me.
jm951 0
Lateral runout and projectile/neck concentricity play a pretty big part in ammo consistency. To check it, you will need a dial indicator and something to hold the finished round in.
The problem in loading accuracy rounds for an auto is that the chambers have fairly loose tolerances. With a bolt gun, you simply fireform and neck size only.
Other factors- flash hole size and position, and brass uniformity. Check that all flash holes are the same size, use jet drill to do that. Keep the brass all of the same lot together.
Some of this won't matter with autos, but will really help with bolt guns/single shots.
The problem in loading accuracy rounds for an auto is that the chambers have fairly loose tolerances. With a bolt gun, you simply fireform and neck size only.
Other factors- flash hole size and position, and brass uniformity. Check that all flash holes are the same size, use jet drill to do that. Keep the brass all of the same lot together.
Some of this won't matter with autos, but will really help with bolt guns/single shots.
Thanks!
I do have one semi auto where all this would come into play.
It has very tight tolerances on the chamber and throat.
But given the fact if that was all I was ever going to do is shoot 1000yds, I would have chosen the 24" bbl.
But this 19.5" should be fine to 1000yds, and outstanding up to 800yds.
Good thing that the Grendel was designed to be very effective out of a shorter bbl.
I do have one semi auto where all this would come into play.
It has very tight tolerances on the chamber and throat.
But given the fact if that was all I was ever going to do is shoot 1000yds, I would have chosen the 24" bbl.
But this 19.5" should be fine to 1000yds, and outstanding up to 800yds.
Good thing that the Grendel was designed to be very effective out of a shorter bbl.
steve1 5
Quote
The problem in loading accuracy rounds for an auto is that the chambers have fairly loose tolerances. With a bolt gun, you simply fireform and neck size only.
.
.........................................................................
Reloading may be difficult for an auto. If the case doesn't meet a minimum size it is likely to jam up. Many people won't shoot reloads in an automatic for that reason alone.
I used to neck size only for my bolt action rifles. The case will fit the chamber better that way. It will work fine for a time or two. Eventually the case will get too long to even close your bolt on. I full length resize all my brass now. I hate having to force my bolt closed. I don't want it to happen when I'm hunting. Most people who compete in bench rest competition neck resize only.
I've never drilled my flash holes to a uniform size. This can make a difference though.
Weighing your cases, as John mentioned, is a good trick for tight groups.
Some people say there is a difference in primer brands. Mine all seem to shoot about the same though. Maybe I need to test this more closely. Consistensy is the key.
It can sure take a long time to load a box of shells if you do all this. I'm a control freak on some of this. It pays off in tight groups and super accuracy.
But then again how much accuracy do you really need for hunting? A rifle that groups two inches at a 100 yds is probably plenty good enough. Most of my hunting rifles with the right reload will shoot under 3/4 of an inch at that range.
A long shot is where accuracy pays off.... For 1,000 yard competition this is important. I'd like to try that some day....
jm951 0
I used to hand load for accuracy just for grins. I also neck sized only each time. The key to avoiding problems there is to fireform the brass and check case length each loading. It's pretty time consuming, but can be quite rewarding.
I agree, it's waaay overkill on most hunting ammo that will be used in a gun that is best a 2moa proposition. Even so, handloading can make it more economical for an average shooter to practice more. With the cost of a box of 3006 exceeding $20, that works out to over a $1/shot. Handloading can easily get that down into the $.3-.4 range. It isn't for everybody, but I enjoy taking the time to make good ammo.
I agree, it's waaay overkill on most hunting ammo that will be used in a gun that is best a 2moa proposition. Even so, handloading can make it more economical for an average shooter to practice more. With the cost of a box of 3006 exceeding $20, that works out to over a $1/shot. Handloading can easily get that down into the $.3-.4 range. It isn't for everybody, but I enjoy taking the time to make good ammo.
JohnRich 4
QuoteSome barrels are kind of finicky if they get dirty. I wouldn't expect problems unless you are firing thirty rounds or more.
Fouling would be progressive, since I don't clean during the middle of a match, or between stages. So if that were a factor, the accuracy would degrade the more I shoot. But that doesn't fit the pattern here, where it degrades only after 10 - 14 shots, starting from a cold barrel.
Pardon my absence for the last few days. I'm just getting caught up again now. A nasty auto accident on Tuesday had me away from the computer for a couple of days. I'm hurtin', but there's nothing broken. Attached: photo of my beloved car, smashed to bits...
Good to hear you are ok, what the hell happened?
Someone take a left in front of you?
Someone take a left in front of you?
JohnRich 4
QuoteGood to hear you are ok, what the hell happened?
Someone take a left in front of you?
Some tattooed punk made a last-second rapid lane change from the highway to the exit ramp (where I was). He didn't make it, smacking the barrier wall in-between. This made his car fly up into the air and spin, where it came back down on top of my hood. There was a split second there where the rear-end of the car was poised high like a cobra, and coming back down right at my windshield - I didn't think I was going to make it. Having a 4,000-lb. car land on top of me was the most incredibly violent thing I've ever experienced in my life. Ugh! I was lucky to limp away with nothing by bruised ribs, scrapes and cuts.
Ouch John... It's going to take a lot of T-Cut to sort those scratches... At least you're O.K.
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
JohnRich 4
QuoteQuoteTwo weekends ago I had a 1,000-yard match... six-tenths of a mile away.
1000 / 5280 = 0.189 . . . six-tenths?
1,000-yards = 3,000 feet
1 mile = 5,280 ft.
3,000 ft. / 5,280 ft. = .57 mile
Okay, I exaggerated and rounded .57 up to .6.
JohnRich 4
QuoteWhat version of the M1A do you own?
I've got the basic model and have installed a Harris Bipod, surplus walnut stock, and a Bushnell scope. Mostly I just plink at 100 - 200 yds with this rifle.
My preference now is SASS and used to enjoy IPSC. I was "Expert" with the M14 and was quite good out to 350 meters back then...before we converted to M16s
I have a Springfield, with a national match stainless barrel. The trigger is standard. Wood stock. No scope - I like iron sights.
I trained with the M-14 in the Marines, so later in life, I had to have one again of my own.
Is the receiver bedded, and the bbl free floated?
JohnRich 4
QuoteAlso try 155grain Lapua Scenars.
You might be amazed, in that they will almost always stay supersonic at 1000yds.
Load up a few and try them out, maybe with the IMR4895 to start.
I've spent a year getting to where I am now. I'm not in a hurry to start over again from scratch. Ack!
The Lapua Scenars have a ballistic coefficient of .508.
http://www.lapua.com/information/products/components/
The Sierra 175's I shoot are about .505. Virtually identical.
http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=bc&submit=1&stock_num=2275&bullettype=0
Wow. Yeah, they probably would work, even though they're light. But I'll bet you have to push them pretty darned fast. But of course, the heavier bullets buck wind better than lighter bullets.
JohnRich 4
QuoteIs the bbl free floated?
No. I don't even think that's a possibility with the M1A, since the gas system hangs under the barrel and is attached to it. It's not like a bolt rifle.
We had synthetic stocks on these, and they were somewhat lighter than the standard wood stocks. Your first shot was on the money, and the rest might have killed some ducks in the sky, but that would be about it. Using full auto seemed like a waste of ammo to me. There was no way to control it.
To tell you the truth I enjoyed firing an M-1 Garand more than the M-14. I'd hate to pack a garand around all day, but they were nice to shoot. They were heavy enough, not to kick too bad. I liked the balance of them, and most were very accurate.
I'd also take a military peep over buck horn sights any day. Again that's my opinion....
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