The Golden Compass

[woodpecker 0]

Eutropia a Jackal !!!!

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[Skyrad 0]

I saw it at the weekend. I enjoyed it but I wish they had taken an extra hour rather than chop the story so much. Hopefully the next one will be a bit longer.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[rehmwa 2]

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I put this here. I was actually sort of hoping she'd see the light on this, but since she got all huffy about it I thought it was best moved here.

All I see is you trying to tell a good mother how to raise her children because your subjective belief system must obviously be better than her subjective belief system.

And then you have the nerve to imply she is more close minded than you are.

This would be funny if it wasn't a chronic pattern of behavior.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[quade 3]

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All I see is you trying to tell a good mother how to raise her children because your subjective belief system must obviously be better than her subjective belief system.

I didn't tell her how to raise her children. I didn't tell her how to live her life. I asked her to examine why one instance of writing a children's novel from one point of view was acceptable but from another is not.

Get a grip.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Shotgun 1]

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Both men did the exact same thing for the exact same reasons, just with opposite viewpoints.

Trying to sell their views of religion through children's books?

[Skolls081102 0]

Does this sound lian angry man spittng at th church?

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Matt Cherry (Humanist Network News): Well, one factor that may affect the box office is the boycott that's being urged by some Christian groups who are claiming that your work is anti Christian, or even more specifically anti Catholic. How do you respond to that?

Philip Pullman: Yeah, that's correct -- I mean, it's correct that they are trying to organize a boycott. I think these people are...it's ridiculous. It really is absurd. They never learn. They never learn that if you want to draw attention to a film to make everybody curious to go and see it, then make a fuss about it. It always happens, every single time they try to do this. They never learn.

And the other thing they never seem to notice is that they are behaving exactly in the way I describe the religious authorities -- who have got their hands on political power -- as behaving. In other words, they are repressing arguments, they are repressing freedom of speech, they are trying to prevent people from understanding things; they are doing exactly what I describe in the book. It's not surprising that they are creating a fuss. But I do wonder that they never learn that the result is always the opposite of what they claim they want.

I'd say thats a pretty true statement.

The sole intention, is learning to fly.Condition grounded, but determined to try.Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies.Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit.

[jakee 1,254]

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The movie wasn't religious at all. The magesterium is presented as a corrupt and controlling government, not a church.

Well, they did say the took out direct references. But the books are very anti-Christ.

Have you ever actually read the books?

They aren't anti 'Christ' at all, it's corrupt, totalitarian earthbound churches that get the brunt of his anger. Think the Catholic church before the rennaissance and you'll get a fairly good idea of what he's attacking.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

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I asked her to examine why one instance of writing a children's novel from one point of view was acceptable but from another is not.

It's very simple - these are subjective viewpoints, therefore one viewpoint to a specific individual can be acceptable and the other isn't to that same individual. I was very impressed that no one was simple enough to play the Narnia card in this thread, but then you ruined that.

In any case. It seems to me that she did some research and made a judgment call.

To continue to beat on that is just you pushing your subjective viewpoint. The Narnia contrast/comparison was really weak in that it presses the opposite side of the same coin - no kidding one can accept one viewpoint and not the others. Really, how can you miss that and think that was a good gambit to play? It's just the same old "you're a hypocrit" name calling tactic always played.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[LisaM 0]

I have stated already that I have not ever actually read the books nor have I seen the movie. I stated that I only read reviews and did some reading on what all the controversy was about. I never bashed it nor said anything along the lines that anyone who wants to read it should.

Just mere curiosity.

~ Lisa
~ Do you Rigminder?

[jakee 1,254]

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I have stated already that I have not ever actually read the books nor have I seen the movie. I stated that I only read reviews and did some reading on what all the controversy was about. I never bashed it nor said anything along the lines that anyone who wants to read it should.

Perhaps you shouldn't state as fact your uninformed opinion of what the books contain then.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[LisaM 0]

I am comfortable with my beliefs enough to read the book and enev enjoy the book.

The issue lies in those that have young children who ther are trying to teach their faith nd having a CHILDREN'S book come along and directly speak aganst that. There lies the issue. Talk about confusing a kid.

Kids aren't equipped to handle all that.

~ Lisa
~ Do you Rigminder?

[LisaM 0]

I don't recall doing such. I thought I was very open that I read about the book when doing research about it.

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Well, they did say the took out direct references. But the books are very anti-Christ. Let me know what you think of the religious aspect of the book.

No, I have not read nor seen the movie. Just did some reading up on it since my son came home talking about it one day.

I thought I was explicit. My apologies if I was not.

~ Lisa
~ Do you Rigminder?

[quade 3]

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Both men did the exact same thing for the exact same reasons, just with opposite viewpoints.

Trying to sell their views of religion through children's books?

Yep.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[livendive 8]

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I am comfortable with my beliefs enough to read the book and enev enjoy the book.

The issue lies in those that have young children who ther are trying to teach their faith nd having a CHILDREN'S book come along and directly speak aganst that. There lies the issue. Talk about confusing a kid.

Kids aren't equipped to handle all that.

I think you underestimate children. My daughter is now a young adult, but when she was a child, I encouraged her to explore as many different facets of religion as her curiousity led her to. She never seemed particularly confused or overwhelmed by the subject.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[quade 3]

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I was very impressed that no one was simple enough to play the Narnia card in this thread, but then you ruined that.

"The Narnia Card"? You are aware the entire Narnia series was written with the specific intention of it being an allegory to the Christ story and the entire Aletheometer series was written in direct response to it aren't you?

In any discussion of the second you pretty much have to bring up the first.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

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I have stated already that I have not ever actually read the books nor have I seen the movie. I stated that I only read reviews and did some reading on what all the controversy was about.

I made the choice to go see Narnia.. and found it a wonderful movie in spite of all the hype about religion.. and enjoyed it for what it was.. ENTERTAINMENT.

I made the choice to go see The Golden Compass.. and found it a wonderful movie in spite of all the hype about religion.. and enjoyed it for what it was.. ENTERTAINMENT.


Anyone see a pattern there???

I can think for myself.... and have an open mind... and I need good entertainment

Both movies entertained me and I look forward to the next installment for either.

[skysprite 0]

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I am comfortable with my beliefs enough to read the book and enev enjoy the book.

The issue lies in those that have young children who ther are trying to teach their faith nd having a CHILDREN'S book come along and directly speak aganst that. There lies the issue. Talk about confusing a kid.

Kids aren't equipped to handle all that.

But children read fantasy and fiction books, and generally understand that that's all it is. Sure they might make up games involving what they read or watch, but I'd be more inclined to believe they play that they have a daemon, or have bear or witch friends, in this case.

It absolutely isn't my place to tell anyone how to raise their children and I want to make that clear. But for me, I don't see this as a problem. Let the child read the book then ask questions. At that point if you feel you have to, reaffirm yours and their beliefs then. Make a lesson out of it, if you're so inclined.

I want my faith to be complete. So in order to do that I asked questions, I researched other belief systems. I had gone to about six different churches in my youth with my parents because they wanted me to make my own decisions. In the end I went with what was most comfortable. I realize I'm arguing an entirely different point because the parents in this thread want to teach their faith without question, but all of the adults that I know who had religion force fed to them all rebelled after they grew up anyway. Wouldn't it be better to let them view other thoughts, then ask questions wherein you can have a genuine heart to heart with them, and not just tell them "this is how it is" but let them discover faith in a comfortable, relaxed, and loving atmosphere?

Sorry for the tangent. This is why I don't come in here that often.

~skysprite

[LisaM 0]

I am going to leave it at this.

I was merely trying to point out why some parents may have issues with it.

I have had a similar talk with my son about Harry Potter after he stated it was a bad movie because of the witchcraft in it. It's for entertainment and as long as he did not have an urge to go join a Wicca group, he was safe to enjoy the movie.

I would not withhold my child from seeing it. I would encourage him te explore all avenues.

I was merely pointing out some other sides. It might be close-minded to not see it for the entertainment value just as it might be close-minded not to see it for the dark message it migt relay. Or might not.

~ Lisa
~ Do you Rigminder?

[nerdgirl 0]

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I was very impressed that no one was simple enough to play the Narnia card in this thread, but then you ruined that.

"The Narnia Card"? You are aware the entire Narnia series was written with the specific intention of it being an allegory to the Christ story and the entire Aletheometer series was written in direct response to it aren't you?

Another analysis of the response by members different faiths to fiction novels that I think would be a fascinating comparison and contrast is Phillip Pullman’s novels and Salman Rushdie’s _The Satanic Verses_.

On one hand, I’m not aware of anyone calling for death sentences for Pullman. Otoh …

Criticism of books considered/perceived/banned/seen as "anti-Christian" is not novel. Two of my favorites are Margaret Atwood’s _The Handmaid’s Tale_ and Kate Chopin’s _The Awakening_ (from the late 1800s).

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[jakee 1,254]

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I was very impressed that no one was simple enough to play the Narnia card in this thread, but then you ruined that.

"The Narnia Card"? You are aware the entire Narnia series was written with the specific intention of it being an allegory to the Christ story and the entire Aletheometer series was written in direct response to it aren't you?

Another analysis of the response by members different faiths to fiction novels that I think would be a fascinating comparison and contrast is Phillip Pullman’s novels and Salman Rushdie’s _The Satanic Verses_.

On one hand, I’m not aware of anyone calling for death sentences for Pullman.

You are now.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[mamajumps 0]

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I have a major problem with someone that admits to weaving their hatred for my way of life into books they are trying to get into my kids' hands.

How did you feel about Narnia?

I have the series here in front of me (crammed in this bookcase somewhere ). I have the movie, too. I thought it was brilliant. I didn't see CS Lewis waving a flag saying 'death to Christians'.

Pullman could write a cookbook and I wouldn't buy it. I'll explain it to you this way; if this guy named Larry hated my dad and tried to tell the community that dad's business was a sham, a hoax, and illegal...would I EVER buy anything to support Larry?

I'm not very good at analogies. I haven't seen the movie or read the book. I have read the author's own words and understand him to be an asshole and trying to get my kid to think that she isn't worth what we tell her she is. In my very humble opinion, he is a jackass and won't be invited into our home.

We have Baptist and Jewish and LDS & atheist friends. None of them would dare try to impose their ideals on my kids in my home. This guy is. He's outta here.

I agree with you 200% Jaye! My kids will not see the movie or read the books. I am a Christian and proud of it, I may not always live the way I should, but I am also human. However, anyone who is a self-admitted atheist "hell-bent" on changing kids to believe that there is no Christ or that He is a false prophet has no place in my life. Things, short of miracles have happened in my life on more than one occassion that can only be described as God working in my life. I am a believer, born again Christian and so are my kids. I too have friends who fall into all categories where religion and faith is concerned, and I myself am not a big fan of organized religion, but rather a personal friendship and relationship with God himself. OK flame away....

[billvon 2,379]

>but I've also read on the net that the most offensive part is when
>the children kill God at the end of the series.

I think the aspect of the book that some churches are most worried about is the assertion that "heaven and hell" are a) one and the same; b) a creation of established religions used to control the masses by holding such a threat/promise over their heads.

[billvon 2,379]

> My kids will not see the movie or read the books.

FYI, when I was in high school (around age 13 or so) we were forbidden to see the Life of Brian. It was anti-catholic, anti-christian, immoral etc. The school sent a letter home to my parents - and THEY told me I shouldn't see it.

As a result, every single kid I knew in high school saw it. It was the height of dorkiness to be one of the kids who obeyed the school's silly ultimatums.

So raise your kids however you choose - but be aware that making a big deal out of the movie/books, and forbidding them to see it, will virtually guarantee they will both see the movie and think it's a big deal.

[Shotgun 1]

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I think the aspect of the book that some churches are most worried about is the assertion that "heaven and hell" are a) one and the same; b) a creation of established religions used to control the masses by holding such a threat/promise over their heads.

And I suppose that is a valid concern on their part.

But I only had to read one book to decide that I didn't believe in Christianity, and that book was the Bible. So they can boycott all they want; people will still think for themselves.

[peregrinerose 0]

I can understand Jaye not wanting to line the guy's pockets, but I don't understand not using it as an opportunity to talk with and educate a child.

If one of your kids wants to read the book, have you considered getting it from the library (thus you have given no money to the author), let them read it, and be open to any discussion that results?

I am not Christian, do not believe in a Christian God, but I do respect other belief systems, and fully intend on encouraging my children to explore Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and other belief systems for themselves. I would rather they talk with me about it, ask their questions, be open with my own beliefs and those of others than to be brainwashed into only one way of thinking (my own).

My mindset isn't too far different than Pullman's, so I'm guessing that Jaye and Mamajumps wouldn't let me anywhere near their kids... which is too bad, I'm a good person, live a very giving and generous life. Most who know me consider me a good role model.

Edited to add chances are any kid who reads the book will read it in the same light as Narnia... a good fantasy novel and nothing more. I read both Narnia and Golden Compass as a kid, loved them both. With the girl protagonist, I like GC a little better, but to my kid mind, I never saw the religious overtones.,.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda