EU-Africa Summit

[nigel99 143]

Mugabe has got his way and is attending the summit. Thankfully Gordon Brown has stuck to his guns and not gone.

How can Africa be expected to be equal partners on the world stage and yet stand by despots and dictators? A large swathe of southern africa is blatantly racist (look at the last AU summit where Mugabe was the only leader who got a standing ovation) - why because he tells the west where to get off.

Personally it sickens me that we in the west stay involved with nations who hate us and don't want to adopt our principles, they are just looking for free handouts. Africa should be free to go its own way and we should not bitch about it BUT we should not continually bail them out of trouble either.

The destruction that Mugabe has governed is beyond belief and yet he STILL has a large amount of support within the country - because he is racist. To provide a personal example of the effect of the collapse 10 years ago I thought I may go back and so rented out my house. Within a few months the cost of paying the mortgage from here was £60 for the mortgage payment and £40 for the tranfer fees. Being rather naive to the ways of economic collapse it made sense to move from Zim's 25% interest rate to a UK bank rate so I took out a £3k loan from the bank and cleared the mortgage. Things continued to deteriote so we sold the home for Z$1M after 12 months which was aproximately £20k at the time. Due to wild currency fluctuations and waiting for a better time we ended up with nothing. Our money in the bank in Zim is now worth 0.0001p as the currency has been devalued twice with 6 zeros being chopped off and it is now aproximately Z$4 to the £1.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

Quote

How can Africa be expected to be equal partners on the world stage and yet stand by despots and dictators?

Personally it sickens me that we in the west stay involved with nations who hate us and don't want to adopt our principles, they are just looking for free handouts. Africa should be free to go its own way and we should not bitch about it BUT we should not continually bail them out of trouble either.

Sounds like you don't know the first thing about African, the history of Africa or current goings on in Africa.

[Skyrad 0]

Quote

Mugabe has got his way and is attending the summit. Thankfully Gordon Brown has stuck to his guns and not gone.

So while we the British and Americans tell the Israeli's and the Palastinians, the Kosovan Albanians and the Serbs that they must engage in dialouge we hold a double standard with the Zimbabweans and look to exclude them and punish them further with punitive sanctions that have been in place for years while we watch the MDC supporters die in droves as a result.

Quote

How can Africa be expected to be equal partners on the world stage and yet stand by despots and dictators?

I take it you were on the far side of the moon when we the BRITISH people welcomed the King of Suadi Arabia to London a couple of weeks ago stopped half of London for him and got HM the Queen to hold a banqet in his honour. I further speculate that you missed the photo of Prince William shaking hands with the Indonesian generals as they were over here on a defence spending trip (you can see the picture you missed in either The Economist or on the Indonisian Embassy web site.)

Quote

A large swathe of southern africa is blatantly racist (look at the last AU summit where Mugabe was the only leader who got a standing ovation) - why because he tells the west where to get off.

Maybe because they are sick of the imperial shite double standards that get expoused. As for racisim why should we the British and the US have a monopoly on racism? Anyway are you seriously trying to claim that only the blacks in Souther Africa are racist???

Quote

Personally it sickens me that we in the west stay involved with nations who hate us and don't want to adopt our principles,

So you must be very happy when we go to war to try and impose them on them then I guess. Why the fuck should other cultures adopt our principles just because they come from the west don't make them right or universal.

Quote

they are just looking for free handouts.

Africa has vast riches in oil and mineral deposits where do those resources go to? Western nations. We give them loans and then hit them hard with interest which they will never be able to pay back, we buy their resources for bottom dollar and buy diamonds from people who commit the worst atrocities imaginable so we don't have to pay market price so your woman can have a nice shiney stone on her finger. We kill their democraticly elected leaders when they try and step out of line (Patrice Lumumba for example).

Quote

Africa should be free to go its own way and we should not bitch about it BUT we should not continually bail them out of trouble either.

Its us that does everything we can to keep them in debt and poverty by unfair trade and support for oppresive regimes in arms and training.

Quote

The destruction that Mugabe has governed is beyond belief and yet he STILL has a large amount of support within the country - because he is racist.

Because he is feared and becuse he is tribal. We with our sanctions are not blameless either. We can see the effect that they have on the people of Zimbabwe and we still persue them to get rid of Mugabe at any cost to the people.

Quote

To provide a personal example of the effect of the collapse 10 years ago I thought I may go back and so rented out my house. Within a few months the cost of paying the mortgage from here was £60 for the mortgage payment and £40 for the tranfer fees. Being rather naive to the ways of economic collapse it made sense to move from Zim's 25% interest rate to a UK bank rate so I took out a £3k loan from the bank and cleared the mortgage. Things continued to deteriote so we sold the home for Z$1M after 12 months which was aproximately £20k at the time. Due to wild currency fluctuations and waiting for a better time we ended up with nothing. Our money in the bank in Zim is now worth 0.0001p as the currency has been devalued twice with 6 zeros being chopped off and it is now aproximately Z$4 to the £1

Yea, Zim is in a shit state and Mugabe is a facist loon who in my opinion should not be running the country. But, we the west are not the solution, the solution must be found within Africa. If you are a Zimbabwean what are you doing to help YOUR country? Sitting in the UK and bitching about how bad things are in Zim isn't helping anyone. Are you involved with the MDC? Are you making a difference? Mugabe maybe a despotic dictator but when he felt there was a racist power there that he hated he was prepared to pick up a gun and put his life on the line not just sit about in a safe country and bitch about how bad things are at home.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Flacid_Monk 0]

At least this chap has got a lift to the summit....

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m32/pm_tech/comicdogslife01_1.jpg

[nigel99 143]

Hi Skyrad,

Actuallly I don't appreciate any politician having double standards and that includes us in the UK. Examples are many and actually a dictator is only a dictator in the west when he isn't useful in some way.

I think that you should research the facts on the sanctions though as the "sanctions" are the assets and travel restrictions on aproximately 120 individual people - not the entire country.

No I was not trying to imply that only Southern african blacks are racist - I was purely focused on what I consider to be a key aspect of the current situation (as Ian Smiths racism was central to Rhodesia's UDI).

I don't expect any country to adopt western standards of governance however IF they want our aid money they have it on our terms.

Do I bitch about Zim and do nothing yes - why because when the MDC was founded I supported them I went to London meetings and guess what on the whole they are no different. Zim will be just as corrupt and despotic under Morgan as Mugabe. The entire national structure is flawed and to be honest I no longer feel much "patriotism" to a country that refused to renew a passport on the basis of race.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Skyrad 0]

Is there any place for a white face in Southern Africa? I know South Africans who went to the US only to be told that they weren't African becasue they are white. The cheeky fuck who told him this was a black man who thought he was an African simply because he was black! 'African' Americans crack me up, the son of a bitch hadn't even been to Africa just like his father and grandfater and great grandfater before him but still he thought he was an African The Saffa like his father, grandfather, greatgrand father and greatgrand father all were born in Africa and he was a decendant of the vortrekkers.
So what do you see happening in Zim? Can you ever see yourself going back?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[nigel99 143]

I don't think that positive change will come in my life time - cultures take time to change. We are the lucky ones who through grandparents and the like can get out to the UK etc. It would be foolish to go back.

Over the next few decades there are white and mixed race minorities with no ability to exit the country who are going to become reviled and hated, with no economic wealth to protect them. Already Zim laws are framed in accordance with race and those people are going to go through hell - with no rights and no escape.

Actually in Southern Africa there are countries that are not actively looking to de-westernise themselves and people are getting on pretty well together. Botswana probably leads the pack followed by Mozambique and Zambia. I think SA is looking to follow Zimbabwe's lead to be honest and I haven't heard much about Namibia to know one way or the other.

Finally yes the African American thing is funny. Does that me African-British or British-African? I am now British - my wife prefers to continue calling herself African. We once had an African-American stay with us as they came to find their "roots" they had such a culture shock it was incredible - I was to young to remember much but I think they went back to the US as plain "Americans".

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.