Icon134 0 #1 October 11, 2006 ok... so, I lurked our local 4-way (and videographer) team while they were training this weekend (they were aware that I would be there...) and we had decided on a course of action to make the jump as safe as we thought we could. Unfortunately it didn't work out quite as well as we had thought... (I did it a second time later in the weekend and the revised plan was much better...) for the first jump the plan was to dive out after the team, shoot video outside then break off with the team... unfortunately just after I waved off I saw this... http://scottgunshell.com/Vids/Closecall-track.wmv The second time we decided changed the plan to have me dive out after the team, then break off 500 ft before the team did track away perpendicular to jump run for 2000 ft (vertical) and then deploy... the second jump went much better/safer and i got some pretty neat photos of the team. http://scottgunshell.com/Vids/Mystic-Rythms-sm.jpg I suppose the lesson is to be sure the "plan" you have worked out is actually viable/safe...Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #2 October 11, 2006 So, did the tracker see you? I assume/hope so. Nice photo. I'm sure the video guy liked it. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fmmobley 0 #3 October 11, 2006 WOW That was really close. I am glad we aren't reading about it in the "incidents" forum.... Marion Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #4 October 11, 2006 Try breaking off 500 to 100 ft before their break off, and pulling.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #5 October 11, 2006 QuoteI suppose the lesson is to be sure the "plan" you have worked out is actually viable/safe... So what part of the plan do you now think was not viable?"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #6 October 11, 2006 A group tracking in 5 directions isn't tremendously more complicate than 4 directions. I don't see why 2 of you ended up on top of each other at pull time. If I were inside that jump then I would prefer that you break off with us and on level with us so we know exactly where you are."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #7 October 11, 2006 On the first jump when I broke off "with" the team I started out above the team as such when the team picked break off directions I'm not sure I was seen (or taken into account...) and no the team member did not see me. and yes we were very lucky...Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #8 October 11, 2006 QuoteTry breaking off 500 to 100 ft before their break off, and pulling.that's what we did the second time and it worked much better. Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #9 October 11, 2006 QuoteI started out above the team as such when the team picked break off directions I'm not sure I was seen (or taken into account...) If you're above them and tracking with them, then its up to you to clear your airpsace below.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #10 October 11, 2006 QuoteIf you're above them and tracking with them, then its up to you to clear your airpsace below.I understand that and I realize I was at fault... look, people I'm not trying to assign blame to anyone but myself I'm merely putting out this as a no shit this is something that can happen and you need to account for everything. There were a number of things that contributed to this what was fortunately a "nonincident" and like I said we worked out a process that was safe for all parties involved for the second attempt.Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FreeflyGoat 0 #11 October 11, 2006 That's why I have a "no lurker rule". I have stuck to this rule for years cuz it seams that everytime a lurker comes along they either get in the way, bump into me at some point, or orbit around the skydive never holding a position. So, I have not let a lurker come along for quite awhile and then this past weekend the instructor I was working with for the day comes over and asks if it would be OK if this girls boyfriend can come along and lurk her AFF level 2. After all, he has 700 jumps, is extremely current, and a memeber of a team. Reluctantly I said OK if he stays to the rear or the side of the skydive so as not to distract the student and that I can see his positioning during the jump. Well, after exit we level out and what's the first damn thing I see. This guy swoops down, falls right past the other instructor, gets below him and steals his air. I then dont see him for the rest of the skydive. I guarantee that's the last time anybody "lurks" a skydive of mine._________________________ goat derka jerka bukkake jihad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #12 October 11, 2006 >That's why I have a "no lurker rule". Well, to be fair, AFF is a very different story than 4-way. I wouldn't let anyone lurk an AFF I was doing, but there are a great many people I'd let lurk our 4-way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #13 October 11, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf you're above them and tracking with them, then its up to you to clear your airpsace below.I understand that and I realize I was at fault... Standard procedure for a videoman is for him to go to the center and pull high, while everyone else tracks away and pulls lower. The logic for this is that the formation guys can't know where the videoman is, because they're concentrating on each other, and don't really know where the videoman is. And they may not have time to figure it out at breakoff time. So, why not go to the center and pull early, and eliminate all that confusion of having someone high and tracking with everyone else? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #14 October 11, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf you're above them and tracking with them, then its up to you to clear your airpsace below.I understand that and I realize I was at fault... Standard procedure for a videoman is for him to go to the center and pull high, while everyone else tracks away and pulls lower. The logic for this is that the formation guys can't know where the videoman is, because they're concentrating on each other, and don't really know where the videoman is. And they may not have time to figure it out at breakoff time. So, why not go to the center and pull early, and eliminate all that confusion of having someone high and tracking with everyone else? I got the impression that this was a 6-man jump: the 4-way team, the team vidiot, and Icon134 (who also had a camera). Thus, presumably the center spot for pulling-in-place was already occupied by the team vidiot, so Icon134 was obliged to track. Am I incorrect? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #15 October 11, 2006 That was my understanding too.. And Icon: I wasnt trying to point the finger, but at the same time, its important to know who's job it is to pick a clean corridor.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
divegoddess 0 #16 October 11, 2006 Maybe a barrel roll before you pull? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #17 October 11, 2006 >Maybe a barrel roll before you pull? I think this is a particulary bad idea. 1) It guarantees you go unstable just before you pull. 2) It causes your course to become unpredictable - and someone above you may see _you_, and may be planning to pull away from your current course. Best to not alter that course by barrel rolling. 3) If you have the time to barrel roll, use that time to get farther away from the center. 4) You will see more in your hemisphere by looking around carefully than you will see above you by barrel rolling anyway. (Unless you stop on your back to look around, which takes even more time.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azdiver 0 #18 October 12, 2006 Quote>Maybe a barrel roll before you pull? I think this is a particulary bad idea. 1) It guarantees you go unstable just before you pull. 2) It causes your course to become unpredictable - and someone above you may see _you_, and may be planning to pull away from your current course. Best to not alter that course by barrel rolling. 3) If you have the time to barrel roll, use that time to get farther away from the center. 4) You will see more in your hemisphere by looking around carefully than you will see above you by barrel rolling anyway. (Unless you stop on your back to look around, which takes even more time.) ive had several people try to get me to do this and i refuse for the same reason you explain. if i can get the video of a jump i did i will post it. but in the vid you can clearly see the seam and tag on the parchute as i deployed. when we broke of and tracked i went lower than person with camera and he was above and a little back, scary shit watching someone feet pass just a few feet infront of your face.light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #19 October 12, 2006 Quotescary shit watching someone feet pass just a few feet infront of your face. That's incomplete. It's scary to see someone so close in deployment time. I had something similar, but with wing suit. Cameraman or instructor was right behind me close to deployment time. I have given a lazy/incomplete wave off signal and deployed. His good reflexes saved us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #20 October 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteTry breaking off 500 to 100 ft before their break off, and pulling.that's what we did the second time and it worked much better. "The second time we decided changed the plan to have me dive out after the team, then break off 500 ft before the team did track away perpendicular to jump run for 2000 ft (vertical) and then deploy... the second jump went much better/safer and i got some pretty neat photos of the team. " Which one was it? I thought JP was talking about pulling in place? Am i wrong? Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
migliore 0 #21 October 12, 2006 I have lurked Deland Fire > and what we agree upon (and it worked well) is to simply start tracking 1000ft before breakoff and track hard all the way until their pull altitude. No 4-way team member wants to try to locate a 5th person before choosing their tracking direction, so you simply remove yourself from the skydive before they have to. Shane Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #22 October 12, 2006 QuoteI have lurked Deland Fire > and what we agree upon (and it worked well) is to simply start tracking 1000ft before breakoff and track hard all the way until their pull altitude. No 4-way team member wants to try to locate a 5th person before choosing their tracking direction, so you simply remove yourself from the skydive before they have to.Yep that is what was decided on after the first mistake... like others have said this was a 6-man 2-vidiot skydive. I couldn't have the middle because that's where Mike was located.Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #23 October 12, 2006 I've taken the middle before on a similar dive, but I took it to the basement. With the group breaking at 4500 and the video pulling right away I thought it was fairly safe to stay under the group (I was shooting looking up on my back) and just suck it down to a 2000 foot opening. Staying on my back through their break off let me verify the camera flyer had a good canopy and that everyone had started tracking away.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #24 October 12, 2006 Do you look 'down'/toward your feet and to the side as you are tracking? I always do that to monitor where the rest of the group is and adjust my trajectory as needed. Some people will turn and track away as if they have all day to do it. Some will turn and track like they really need to get away now. Much better to get good at doing it fast.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #25 October 12, 2006 QuoteSo, did the tracker see you? I assume/hope so. No the tracker (that would be me) did not see him. It doesn't look like it in the video, but I was far enough below scott that he was out of my field of vision. When I dumped I glanced over my shoulder at my bag leaving the container and saw his canopy above me and thought "OH, SHIT!" The plan was that he would break at 5, and we would not break until 4-4.5, so in theory he would be well away. In practice, although he did break higher, I tracked farther, and the result is what you see here. The plan on the 2nd jump, with scott opening high, worked much better."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
