virgin-burner 1 #176 July 30, 2009 Quote Quote If it were merely an intellectual choice you would have a very good point. However, I have experiential evidence that indicate I am on the correct path. No worries. And I (and the other 5 billion non-christians on the planet) have experiential "evidence" that indicates you're not. I'm OK with that. No worries. looks like you're always ok when someone says something that adheres to the logic of reason.. no worries! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #177 July 30, 2009 QuoteSpeak for yourself, dude. I've got no evidence of any kind on any of those belief systems (christian or otherwise). For all I know, Ron's belief system is exactly correct. But without any evidence, I'm going with my own (atheistic) one. I would have expected that if the 5 billion non-christians had any experience that christianity were right, they would all be christians. But you're right, I can only speak for myself and in my experience things that have no evidence to suggest they exist are indistinguishable from them not existing at all. Maybe your experience is different, I don't know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base283 0 #178 July 30, 2009 QuoteI have tried on several occasions. However, I will assume you are asking in honesty. In Mar 81 the Holy Spirit guided me to the foot of the cross, I surrendered and experienced the forgiveness of sin. In Apr 83 I asked for and received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Shortly thereafter I heard the audible voice of the Lord and was instantly delivered from the desire for nicotine and mood altering chemicals. Which Cross and where? It sounds worthy of a visit. Why the 2yr delay? I would have thought that it would all happen in one moment. Take care, space Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #179 July 30, 2009 Quote I heard the audible voice of the Lord and was instantly delivered from the desire for nicotine and mood altering chemicals. Another one of those ... "That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #180 July 30, 2009 Quote Anyone that truly believes they have "experiential evidence" of a god is delusional. Why do we give people that hold religious delusions a pass when all other delusional individuals are referred the mental health system? Doesn't matter if a person believes they came from outer space, as long as they're happy, not hurting others, & functional enough to take care of themselves, they don't need any treatment. (Ever see the movie "Man Facing Southeast?") The worst thing you could say about such a person is that they're eccentric compared to most others, but not in need of treatment. From a pragmatic sense, if belief in Christianity gets your life moving in a positive direction & gets you off addictions, etc, then there's probably something to it. On the other hand, if a belief in the Heavens Gate cult causes you to have your nuts cut off, and then commit suicide so you can ride in a spaceship behind a comet, then that is probably NOT a good belief system to have. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #181 July 30, 2009 Quote Quote I heard the audible voice of the Lord and was instantly delivered from the desire for nicotine and mood altering chemicals. Another one of those ... I've heard an audible before, and had it deliver me from ground rush. Does that count? -- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #182 July 30, 2009 Quote Quote Quote I heard the audible voice of the Lord and was instantly delivered from the desire for nicotine and mood altering chemicals. Another one of those ... I've heard an audible before, and had it deliver me from ground rush. Does that count? I was referring to the delivered from the desire for mood altering chemicals."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #183 July 30, 2009 QuoteI've got no evidence of any kind on any of those belief systems (christian or otherwise). For all I know, Ron's belief system is exactly correct. But that's the flaw of logic that I see in so many religious arguments. The "burden of proof" is not to produce evidence to disprove religious beliefs, but to produce evidence to prove them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #184 July 30, 2009 Quote Quote I heard the audible voice of the Lord and was instantly delivered from the desire for nicotine and mood altering chemicals. Another one of those ... Does it never occur to those people that the voices were caused by the mood altering chemicals?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #185 July 30, 2009 Quote Anyone that truly believes they have "experiential evidence" of a god is delusional. Why do we give people that hold religious delusions a pass when all other delusional individuals are referred the mental health system? Baggage in the form of cultural norms." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #186 July 30, 2009 Quote Which Cross and where? It sounds worthy of a visit. Why the 2yr delay? I would have thought that it would all happen in one moment. Take care, space To kneel at the foot of the cross is an expression that the sinner has accepted Jesus Christ's atoning death through crucifixion, surrendered control and asked Jesus to come into his life and take control. Why the two year delay? To step on the path of salvation requires learning and growth. The sinner is born again and begins as a new creature in Christ. Just as with any learning, it takes time, line upon line, precept upon precept. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman. You are never forced or given more than God's grace will cover.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #187 July 30, 2009 Are you joking?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #188 July 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteI've got no evidence of any kind on any of those belief systems (christian or otherwise). For all I know, Ron's belief system is exactly correct. But that's the flaw of logic that I see in so many religious arguments. The "burden of proof" is not to produce evidence to disprove religious beliefs, but to produce evidence to prove them. Is personal sworn testimony, under oath, admissible as evidence?Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #189 July 30, 2009 Quote Quote Quote I heard the audible voice of the Lord and was instantly delivered from the desire for nicotine and mood altering chemicals. Another one of those ... Does it never occur to those people that the voices were caused by the mood altering chemicals? I was studying the Bible and praying at the time. No substances had been ingested for several weeks.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #190 July 30, 2009 this thread has drifted. Originally it was about chuteless's end times predictions which keep failing. Now it has become the usual slamfest against all believers in God. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #191 July 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI've got no evidence of any kind on any of those belief systems (christian or otherwise). For all I know, Ron's belief system is exactly correct. But that's the flaw of logic that I see in so many religious arguments. The "burden of proof" is not to produce evidence to disprove religious beliefs, but to produce evidence to prove them. Is personal sworn testimony, under oath, admissible as evidence? Well, of course you know that it is - just as non-religiously "affirmed" testimony is. But don't confuse "admissibility" with "reliability", for they are two different things altogether. Generally, a witness's oath or affirmation only makes his testimony admissible, and that's only if it is subject to contemporaneous cross-examination - without the opportunity for cross-examination, it's inadmissible hearsay. (That's why sworn, written affidavits are often ruled inadmissible as evidence in court: because a written document, without its author present, cannot be cross-examined; and in that context, the fact that it may be sworn-to is immaterial.) In large part, the reason why witnesses in court or depositions must swear or affirm an oath before testimony has nothing to do with establishing the reliability of their testimony; rather, it is to make the witness lawfully subject to prosecution for perjury if he lies under oath/affirmation. So reliability of testimony is different from mere admissibility. In fact, trial judges will specifically instruct juries that they are free, at their discretion, to accept, or reject, in whole or in part, each item of evidence, including sworn testimony. I accept, and respect, your credibility as to the existence of the deep religious faith that you feel, believe and profess. I'm not saying that you should reject your faith because it is not necessarily subject to corporeal or scientific proof. But the fact that you believe, with all of your heart, that your faith is true, and I believe that your faith is honestly-held, is not proof to me that the items of faith that you believe in are factually true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #192 July 30, 2009 Quote .... The sinner is born again and begins as a new creature in Christ. .... When? Am I allowed to choose my life-form? I was always dreaming of beeing a wonderful strong eagle in 2nd life, hovering high above all the mess on earth. Will I have the choice? dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #193 July 30, 2009 Quote Are you joking? Jamile, BillCole left this board since a while. I really doubt he'll ever come back. At least, that's what he told me a while ago. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #194 July 30, 2009 Quote Quote Are you joking? Jamile, BillCole left this board since a while. I really doubt he'll ever come back. At least, that's what he told me a while ago. He last logged in - on his chuteless s/n - today, about 5 hours ago. FWIW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #195 July 30, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Are you joking? Jamile, BillCole left this board since a while. I really doubt he'll ever come back. At least, that's what he told me a while ago. He last logged in - on his chuteless s/n - today, about 5 hours ago. FWIW. Wow - means, we'll be enlightened very soon, again .... running away, looking for flameproof stuff> dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yourmomma 0 #196 July 30, 2009 If the same voice/ephiany whatever came to you and said on the 12th of august the world will end; then this failed to come true. Would this lead you to a crisis of faith or would you chalk it up to not understanding gods will. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ion01 1 #197 July 30, 2009 Gal 1:6I am astonished that you are(L) so quickly deserting(M) him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to(N) a different gospel— 7(O) not that there is another one, but(P) there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or(Q) an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you,(R) let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received,(S) let him be accursed. So if you ever hear anything different than what the apostles spoke then its wrong. So if you really did hear a voice there is no reason to believe it was God because you supposedly learned new things that could not be learned from what the apostles said and therefore the "voice" should have been accursed by you. Sorry, but everything you have said has no reference to the bible. Can you even produce where the bible teaches that salvation is obtained by "asking jesus to come into your life." You cannot simple "call upon the name of the lord" as the bible says Matt 7:21(A) "Not everyone who(B) says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will(C) enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who(D) does the will of my Father who is in heaven. and James 2:19(A) You believe that God is one; you do well. Even(B) the demons believe—and shudder! do a simple study and look at what happened anytime anyone in the bible asked what they must do to be saved. You will find something different than "ask jesus to come into your life." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #198 July 31, 2009 Quote If it were merely an intellectual choice you would have a very good point. However, I have experiential evidence that indicate I am on the correct path. No worries. Go on I'm interested... evidence you say..real evidence??? ..... you will be the first you know....----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #199 July 31, 2009 >Anyone that truly believes they have "experiential evidence" of a god is delusional. No more so than a mother who thinks their child is the most important child in the world, or a soldier who thinks that their flag is worth dying for. It doesn't mean that that kid IS objectively the most important person in the world, or that that country is really all that great. It just is for them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #200 July 31, 2009 Quote>Anyone that truly believes they have "experiential evidence" of a god is delusional. No more so than a mother who thinks their child is the most important child in the world, or a soldier who thinks that their flag is worth dying for. It doesn't mean that that kid IS objectively the most important person in the world, or that that country is really all that great. It just is for them. Except in both cases the person is at least projecting that emotion onto a tangible item. At least some part of the statement is tangible. The emotional "belief" in god (because let's face it, it's clearly not a rational one based on physical reality), is a bit like falling "in love" with (I dunno) Betty Rubble. Yes, the emotion may actually be real, but that doesn't mean there's anything actually there to love.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
