Public vs. private school

[jaaska 0]

No private schools (to speak of) in Finland...

See the link:

OECD Programme for International Student Assessment

http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/8/39700724.pdf

Finland has been number one before as well (language and math skills) - this time they tested the science skills.

Every now and then there's a post about the level of primary and secondary education in the USA. There's always a group of people that blame public education for the under the average performance (USA didn't do that well this time either). In Finland, all the schools are public ones (somewhere around 99 %) - even the hard line conservatives are not trying to change this; why fix something that's working so well...

So - blaming the educational system being bad because it's public is BS... Of course one can have good private schools and good public schools - same applies other way around, too...

I think it's safe to say (this is the third time they did this survey and Finland has been on the top one every single time) that the problems might just lay elsewhere than in matter of whether the schools are privately or publicly funded.

[shropshire 0]

Public schools are Private.... in England

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[jaaska 0]

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Public schools are Private.... in England

Yeah, I know - it's some what strange...

[shropshire 0]

It's all down to history. Apparently, it stems from a time when most very rich folk were tutored at home and when the real schools opened to the general public (who could afford them).. hence most fee paying schools are Public.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Nightingale 0]

IMO, it's not that the schools are any better or worse. It's that the school structure is different between the US and Europe. In the US, every child is treated as if they're going into academia, and every child is tested. Elsewhere in the world, it's recognized that higher education isn't for everyone, and students are routed into different tracks and schools, and only the students tracked for academia are tested. It would be like the US testing only our honor students.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Public schools are Private.... in England

Yeah, I know - it's some what strange...

AND they drive on the wrong side of the road.

Must be something in the water over there. If the English ever actually drink water.

Speed Racer
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[jakee 1,254]

Water. I think I've heard of that - is it one of the ingredients of beer?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jaaska 0]

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IMO, it's not that the schools are any better or worse. It's that the school structure is different between the US and Europe. In the US, every child is treated as if they're going into academia, and every child is tested. Elsewhere in the world, it's recognized that higher education isn't for everyone, and students are routed into different tracks and schools, and only the students tracked for academia are tested. It would be like the US testing only our honor students.

It's pretty much the idea here in Finland, too. And yes, this survey did not test just the honor students - if you read how it's done, you'll see that it includes all the pupils in that age class (15 years old).

That's before they leave the comprehensive school (something similar to your primary and secondary school) - which is mandatory to everyone...

You are right in a way - we don't have the same high school system than you do (we've got an upper secondary school). Pupils will choose at the age of 16 whether they'll go to the upper secondary (a bit like high school - students are a year older and will probably (in average) study a bit further academic wise) OR vocational school (where you'll get a "trade").

Whether you choose the one or the other does not, however, "close any doors". If you choose the vocational school, you may still end up having a Ph D - the route would be just a bit different.

(see the chart http://www.oph.fi/english/SubPage.asp?path=447,4699)

About 50 % of the pupils will choose the upper secondary school; this of course means that there are less students in the upper secondary school that would slow down the others - it's not mandatory; if you don't dig it, you may leave.

As I said, these surveys were done BEFORE the split to vocational training / upper secondary school - thus they include the whole age class.

[Royd 0]

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I think it's safe to say (this is the third time they did this survey and Finland has been on the top one every single time) that the problems might just lay elsewhere than in matter of whether the schools are privately or publicly funded.

You should have kept that information to yourself. We can solve your problem quickly, by sending some of our students to you.

[steve1 5]

Probably the greatest influence on a student is the home he or she comes out of. If it is unstable, dysfunctional, abusive, neglectful, etc., those kids almost never do well in school.

I work in a public school like that Many of our students have severe brain damage because their mother chose to use alcohol and drugs before they were born. Some are traumatized beyond believe on a regular basis. And guess what? Most all of these kids are doing poorly in school. You could send them to a private school, and the result wouldn't be any different.

If the public schools are doing well in Finland, that says a lot about the average family there. I'd bet, parents are doing a better job of raising their kids there, than average parents in America. Sure the structure of the school makes a difference too, but there are bigger factors to consider than just looking at the school system.

Isn't it time that some of the short sighted politicians, in America, start looking at what the problem really is? Passing legislation like "No Child Left Behind" sounds wonderful, but the fact remains that it isn't helping. In some cases it is making the problem worse

Many educators are getting out of the profession because teaching is now filled with so much Bull Shit! They are being micro-managed on a regular basis. Kids are not getting what they really need much of the time, because there is so much pressure and time being spent studying for the damn national tests.

It doesn't matter if your students have brain damage, or if they are emotionally scarred, or if they came out of an impoverished environment with little help, support, or stimulation. They have to perform as well as other students in America or the staff in your school can lose their job. Or your school will be shamed, by publishing your test scores in the media for all to see.

Did you know that teaching ranks as 2nd most stressful job anywhere. Then add on all the "No Child Left Behind" crap. Then try teaching in a middle school at a tough school. Damn! How to teachers deal with all that. I'm really glad I'm a counselor and don't have to teach anymore. I couldn't do it.

And what should be done to correct this mess. Cracking down on abusive, dead beat parents, would be a good start. I call Social Services every week in cases dealing with abuse and neglect, and little is done. The courts here are almost worthless.

I work on an Indian Reservation in a remote area. Maybe the situation is better in other parts of America, but I wonder about that too. Inner city schools aren't doing much better. In many cases, things are worse there.

I think one solution would be in teaching parenting classes in schools. The next generation of parents may not have a clue how to be a functional parent, when their time comes to raise a kid. This problem goes from one generation to the next, and the problem is getting worse.

At any rate, thanks for listening to me vent!....

[mnealtx 0]

You make good points.

I've seen myself with my daughters the emphasis on "teaching the test" in regards to the basic assessment tests, and I think it's hurting the kids in the long run. The flip side of that coin is, "How do we tell how well or how badly a school is doing without the tests?"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[steve1 5]

Testing is something that has been done forever. I'm not saying it is all bad. It is important to find out how an individual student is doing, as well as how the school is doing. But why do we need more and more tests? Kids are being pulled away from their studies for days at a time to take still another national test. The latest fad is to test kids more often, and somehow that will make a difference.

It's kind of like a farmer weighing his cows more and more often. As if somehow that will produce greater weight gain. I really can't see the purpose in it.

Testing will pin point schools or students who are failing. But it would be nice if politicians could look at those results and then come up with a plan that would help. Dumping all the blame on educators is ridiculous. Yet, that is what is being done.

How is firing capable teachers and administrators going to help? Sure they can get someone else. Maybe they could hire someone who knows how to do a better job of cheating on the tests. Maybe a principal could encourage all his staff to cheat. (That is often done in schools today.) Then everyone will be happy, including the politicians. Everything will look great on paper. The only one being left out of this loop would be the poor student who still has plenty of problems.

There are educators and schools that need improvement, but the problem goes far beyond that.

If you had a medical problem, would you go to a carpenter to find out what to do? Schools in America are having problems. So, why do we turn to politicians to decide what to do. Wouldn't it be smarter to ask a group of professional educators what they think, and maybe listen to their ideas. It seems that politicians are listening to other politician (wind bags) and then drafting crazy ideas into law....

Thanks for listening...Just my 2 cents worth...

[jaaska 0]

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You make good points.

I've seen myself with my daughters the emphasis on "teaching the test" in regards to the basic assessment tests, and I think it's hurting the kids in the long run. The flip side of that coin is, "How do we tell how well or how badly a school is doing without the tests?"

Finland:

No national tests

The curriculum has only bigger concepts etc - every single teacher has a freedom to choose how they teach; as long as the teaching includes the stuff from national and city curriculum.

In short; there is no external control; of course if you are doing a lousy job the principle will learn about it sooner or later.

Seems to work here...

[steve1 5]

- every single teacher has a freedom to choose how they teach; as long as the teaching includes the stuff from national and city curriculum.
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In America, teachers no longer have that freedom. For reading and math, you we have scripted lessons. If you vary from the script, even a little, you can be brought in on the carpet in front of an administrator.

It doesn't matter if your entire class just doesn't get what you are teaching, you must follow the script. You can't slow down to give them the help they need or do something different.

If your class already understands their lesson well, you must follow the script. You can't move ahead, even though that is what should be done.

If you have a better idea on how to teach something, you can't use that. The script knows best.

If the script asks you to teach something that doesn't even make sense...that is too bad. You still are mandated to follow it.

If the script asks you to do something you are totally uncomfortable doing, you had better do it. The script might ask you to suddenly sing and dance around the room. If that is what the script says, you must do that or face reprimand. This is what "No Child Left Behind" is doing in your school today.

I wonder why Robots aren't used rather than teachers.

When I was teaching, you had a couple of formal evaluations a year. Since I am part of a failing school, we might be evaluated every other day. And guess who is paying for all this micro-management?

The plan in our school now, is to hire a specialist to come in and teach us how to teach to the test. If we can pass a test, we can get some of these Idiots off our backs. Aren't you glad you're not a teacher?....