Massachusetts: Ban Spanking?

[jaaska 0]

In Finland the constitution states that all the citizens (among other rights) have right to "physical immunity" - that is, no one should be physically (in any way) harmed. There's also criminal law against physical violence.

You become citizen when you are born; you stop being one when you die. No exceptions...

People seems grow up to pretty decent adults anyway... (even without corporal punishment).

Of course spanking happens in Finland, too. I'm not naive. The truth is though, that it's easier to act in the case of abusive parents when the law is clear and there is no "gray zone". I have a son and no, I have not spanked him. I don't normally even raise my voice that much - if I do (if he does something stupid and I get scared he hurts himself etc.) he really gets it - the tone and the volume will stop him at once. If you raise your voice all the time, the effect wears out - if you beat your children all the time... something similar to a degree, will happen.

As someone said - excluding some of your basic rights from your most sensitive and defenceless citizen is a weird double standard.

Trying to convince some one on this subject one way or the other is quite pointless though, the studies show that we are bound to are own childhood experiences - if you were beaten, you are likely to beat your own children and you will justify it. Of course this could be turned other way around; since I was not beaten, I won't beat my children. One could say that both ways work - they probably do.

The real question is of course is: if the non-violent way works, why would you use the other one?

[ACMESkydiver 0]

So Massachusetts will ban spanking, but shock aversion to disabled kids is still ok?

As andy mentioned...what is being done to these kids would be illegal if done to adults. Even adults IN PRISON.

Gotta love Massachusetts...

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[rehmwa 2]

I understand that the guy that initiate the action in Massachusetts was asked if he spanks his kids..

and his answer was "it's none of your business"

I'd like to confirm this

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[TrophyHusband 0]

the person to initiate this is a woman. she looks like an old hippy. i doubt there's any truth to it.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[Andy9o8 0]

Ever since I was old enough to think about the issue while growing up, it's always bothered me that modern Western societies permit physical violence by adults upon children that would be criminal if done to an adult. Why is it permitted? Because children are too physically weak to defend themselves against adults; they don't have the means live independently of adults or the right to enter into contracts; they can't vote or participate in the making of the laws that affect them. And so - a least to a degree - adults are legally permitted to assault children. Yes, it may correctly be given several various labels, but assault is one of them.

Incidentally, I know that it's vogue to bash Massachusetts, but nothing has been done by "Massachusetts". This is still just a bill - a proposition drafted by one person (a nurse), submitted by one individual legislator, that is in the early stages of hearings and debate in the state House. If it doesn't pass the House, it dies there. If it passes the House, it still must be submitted to the state Senate. It may or may not pass the Senate. If it doesn't, it dies there. If it doespass the Senate, then it gets submitted to the governor, who may sign it into law, or may veto it. If he vetoes it and the veto isn't overriden by a super-majority of the legislature, it dies there.

Also, let's not presume that failure to specifically address something implies endorsement of it. I haven't read the bill, so I don't know if it addresses all corporal punishment of children, or only that by parents. But even if it's narrowly tailored, there certainly can be no inference that that means Massachusetts impliedly endorses shock discipline. I suggest you find and read the proposed bill. If you think it doesn't protect children against shock discipline, then start a letter-writing campaign to every newspaper and state legislator in Massachusetts urging them to pass a law to ban it. You just might get listened to.

[Andy9o8 0]

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the person to initiate this is a woman. she looks like an old hippy. i doubt there's any truth to it.

The citizen who initiated the bill is a woman. The legislator who is formally sponsoring the bill in the House is a man. Possibly that explains it.

[nerdgirl 0]

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Ever since I was old enough to think about the issue while growing up, it's always bothered me that modern Western societies permit physical violence by adults upon children that would be criminal if done to an adult. Why is it permitted? Because children are too physically weak to defend themselves against adults; they don't have the means live independently of adults or the right to enter into contracts; they can't vote or participate in the making of the laws that affect them.

Is a piece the historical relic to when children (& women) were considered property of their fathers or husbands?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Shotgun 1]

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So Massachusetts will ban spanking, but shock aversion to disabled kids is still ok?

As andy mentioned...what is being done to these kids would be illegal if done to adults. Even adults IN PRISON.

Gotta love Massachusetts...

Up until 1973 (I think), Massachusetts had some sort of "stubborn child" law (based on a passage from the Bible) which basically said that parents could have their children put to death for consistent bad behavior.

Actually, I think a few states had similar laws, and I don't think that any of them were ever used. But it's interesting to see how laws regarding children have changed over the years.

And if a spanking ban was to be passed there, I would imagine that would set the stage for changing the practices at that school as well.

[Shotgun 1]

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Trying to convince some one on this subject one way or the other is quite pointless though, the studies show that we are bound to are own childhood experiences - if you were beaten, you are likely to beat your own children and you will justify it. Of course this could be turned other way around; since I was not beaten, I won't beat my children. One could say that both ways work - they probably do.

I guess I don't follow that pattern. I was spanked as a child, but I do not believe in spanking my own children. But I think you're right in that most people seem to think that spanking is ok since they themselves were spanked as children (and don't feel that it caused them any harm).

And along this subject, here is an excerpt from Delinquency and Young Offenders (Parent, Adolescent and Child Training Skills) by Hollin, Browne, and Palmer:

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Given that harsh forms of discipline have been associated with the development of delinquent behavior, there has been concern about using milder forms of corporal punishment. There is some indication in the literature that physically disciplining a child is likely to have a damaging influence, with the ensuing conclusion that all corporal punishment is potentially abusive. Strassberg et al. (1994), for instance, found that the stronger the form of physical punishment (rated "Non-users", "Spankers" and "Violent"), the more aggressively the child would behave. The children of "Non-users" displayed the lowest levels of aggression, indicating that even milder physical punishment (spanking) increases maladjustment in the child. There is also an argument that using physical force against children, even in a relatively mild form, may be damaging to the child's self-esteem and to parent-child relationships. The effects of physical chastisement may be exacerbated when corporal punishment is used against an adolescent, whose physical size means that the amount of force considered necessary to subdue him or her is considerable. Furthermore, it is suspected that physical punishment follows a cyclical pattern across generations, with those who have been slapped or beaten as a child more likely to themselves use violence against their children.

[Zipp0 1]

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And along this subject, here is an excerpt from Delinquency and Young Offenders (Parent, Adolescent and Child Training Skills) by Hollin, Browne, and Palmer:

I have a friend who was a problem child, but now is doing quite well. He explained it to me this way -

"They told my Dad that I had ADD, which was the cause of all my problems. One day he got sick and tired of it, and smaked the shit out of me. Amazingly, after that I didn't have ADD any more."

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Shotgun 1]

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I have a friend who was a problem child, but now is doing quite well. He explained it to me this way -

"They told my Dad that I had ADD, which was the cause of all my problems. One day he got sick and tired of it, and smaked the shit out of me. Amazingly, after that I didn't have ADD any more."

And now he'll probably smack the shit out of his own kids. But whatever works, I suppose . . .

[Zipp0 1]

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I have a friend who was a problem child, but now is doing quite well. He explained it to me this way -

"They told my Dad that I had ADD, which was the cause of all my problems. One day he got sick and tired of it, and smaked the shit out of me. Amazingly, after that I didn't have ADD any more."

And now he'll probably smack the shit out of his own kids. But whatever works, I suppose . . .

By the way... I know smacked has a 'c'. Typ-o, not misspelling.

Anyway, I really believe that SOME kids need that proverbial 'swift kick in the ass' once in a while. Not a beating, and not all the time.

OTOH, I still remember that time I got 'the belt'. From time to time I consider punching my dad right in the face and letting him figure out what it is payback for.

So, you do need to draw the line somewhere.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.