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dragon2

Demo safety (was: Farm fatality)

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obelixtim


I recall setting an instructors examination paper, and included a Mr Bill question in the written section.



I remember having to answer a question about a demo jump, where the demo jumper would be dressed up as a witch, with broom and hat, plus the demo jump was to be at night and close to water. Question was, what to prepare and how to handle this. A number of people started writing like a full page how-to. The correct answer was: Don't :S

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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dragon2

***
I recall setting an instructors examination paper, and included a Mr Bill question in the written section.



I remember having to answer a question about a demo jump, where the demo jumper would be dressed up as a witch, with broom and hat, plus the demo jump was to be at night and close to water. Question was, what to prepare and how to handle this. A number of people started writing like a full page how-to. The correct answer was: Don't :S

In NZ, don't or can't are words that pose a challenge. They are not automatic answers. We don't take kindly to being told we can't try something. .

Before getting to that stage we would ask if it is possible, and if so, how could it be done safely.

In that way we have made quite a few "impossible" things happen, and safely to boot.

I've been involved in quite a few unusual jumps, both as a planner, participant and the person able to veto the more stupid ideas people sometimes come up with.

Rather than veto something out of hand, I'd rather examine the possibilities. You can learn a lot doing that.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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dragon2

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I recall setting an instructors examination paper, and included a Mr Bill question in the written section.



I remember having to answer a question about a demo jump, where the demo jumper would be dressed up as a witch, with broom and hat, plus the demo jump was to be at night and close to water. Question was, what to prepare and how to handle this. A number of people started writing like a full page how-to. The correct answer was: Don't :S

That's not a correct answer, it's a chickenshit answer. Every skydive, no matter how risk-mitigated the jump and the gear, is a high-risk activity, compared to not jumping at all. The very safest way to prepare and handle one is: Don't do it. Of course, that misses the point. The idea of that kind of exam question is, or should have been, to test the applicant on a combination of knowledge and judgment when asked to be an expert consultant on a higher-risk, specialized jump (regardless of whether the jump is for commercial, demonstration or strictly recreational purposes). Now, if Step #1 is "first, assess whether the jumpers possess the requisite skill set, (and if not, advise them to desist and/or prohibit the jump as needed)", that's fine; but if the answer to the first question is "Yes", then that's not the end of the analysis.

A kick in the ass to the author of that question. Rant over.

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Andy9o8

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I recall setting an instructors examination paper, and included a Mr Bill question in the written section.



I remember having to answer a question about a demo jump, where the demo jumper would be dressed up as a witch, with broom and hat, plus the demo jump was to be at night and close to water. Question was, what to prepare and how to handle this. A number of people started writing like a full page how-to. The correct answer was: Don't :S

That's not a correct answer, it's a chickenshit answer. Every skydive, no matter how risk-mitigated the jump and the gear, is a high-risk activity, compared to not jumping at all. The very safest way to prepare and handle one is: Don't do it. Of course, that misses the point. The idea of that kind of exam question is, or should have been, to test the applicant on a combination of knowledge and judgment when asked to be an expert consultant on a higher-risk, specialized jump (regardless of whether the jump is for commercial, demonstration or strictly recreational purposes). Now, if Step #1 is "first, assess whether the jumpers possess the requisite skill set, (and if not, advise them to desist and/or prohibit the jump as needed)", that's fine; but if the answer to the first question is "Yes", then that's not the end of the analysis.

A kick in the ass to the author of that question. Rant over.

Its an answer for the lazy, or closed minded candidate, and if it was asked with that answer in mind, it doesn't say much for the examining qualities of the examiner.

The Mr Bill question I posed was for exactly the reasons you point out. It was worth 15 marks. The "don't" answer would not have scored highly.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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thats why I
was there a clause added along the lines of "unless you are a certain person with ties to the association" (like the gopro on a pole debate, that ended up with a clause like that)

:S:S:S

Was there also a question about always having to have a reserve (bsr compulsory), unless its a highprofile proxy base out of a c182 above a city, done by some highprofile folk. Or did that not matter to them because it was not on an associated DZ but a demo? Must be because it was okay to boast about it in the news email.

Why these people even try to legislate anything is beyond me.... :S

Or am I being a d*ck on wheels, you tell me?!?! :P Nah for the sake of argument it is probably me... :D

Parachute gear garage sale at :http://www.usedparachutes.eu

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dragon2


I remember having to answer a question about a demo jump, where the demo jumper would be dressed up as a witch, with broom and hat, plus the demo jump was to be at night and close to water.

That jump can be done safely, but it needs the right jumper and proper planning. That's all. :)

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JohnMitchell

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I remember having to answer a question about a demo jump, where the demo jumper would be dressed up as a witch, with broom and hat, plus the demo jump was to be at night and close to water.

That jump can be done safely, but it needs the right jumper and proper planning. That's all. :)
Twardo would nail it. Whilst wearing pyro.

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JohnMitchell

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I remember having to answer a question about a demo jump, where the demo jumper would be dressed up as a witch, with broom and hat, plus the demo jump was to be at night and close to water.

That jump can be done safely, but it needs the right jumper and proper planning. That's all. :)
................................................................................
If you have a hard time filling the load, call me last.
Hah!
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mr2mk1g

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I remember having to answer a question about a demo jump, where the demo jumper would be dressed up as a witch, with broom and hat, plus the demo jump was to be at night and close to water.

That jump can be done safely, but it needs the right jumper and proper planning. That's all. :)
Twardo would nail it. Whilst wearing pyro.


Damn Skippy!B|

And I guarantee THREE things....it would be done Safely - Successfully - and it would not be CHEAP! ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I assure you, it most definitely is you.

Why not doing something constructive and perhaps join one of the overseeing committees? Then you can help MAKE the rules instead of just whining about them.
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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dragon2

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I recall setting an instructors examination paper, and included a Mr Bill question in the written section.



I remember having to answer a question about a demo jump, where the demo jumper would be dressed up as a witch, with broom and hat, plus the demo jump was to be at night and close to water. Question was, what to prepare and how to handle this. A number of people started writing like a full page how-to. The correct answer was: Don't :S

what I don't get is the negative attitude of some posters opposing that very legitimate answer....
once again - dz.com kangaroo-court
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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feuergnom

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I recall setting an instructors examination paper, and included a Mr Bill question in the written section.



I remember having to answer a question about a demo jump, where the demo jumper would be dressed up as a witch, with broom and hat, plus the demo jump was to be at night and close to water. Question was, what to prepare and how to handle this. A number of people started writing like a full page how-to. The correct answer was: Don't :S

what I don't get is the negative attitude of some posters opposing that very legitimate answer....
once again - dz.com kangaroo-court

It is a BS answer. Where does one draw the line? Sure there are jumps that only a small subset of jumpers should be attempting to pull off, but if you are answering this question on a test you are at the very least going into an area where some of this subset lie. It was not a yes or no question. As was already said the "Don't" response could be applied across the board. To some whuffos it applies to every jump we do.

I have done jumps far more difficult talent wise than that, but the point of the question assumes the talent and focuses on the planning. It is a horse shit question if that was the correct response and belongs nowhere on a test. You become graded on the instructors own personal opinions and level of competency and that is just flat out wrong. A trick question has no business on that test

Edited to reiterate. I don't think anyone is saying it is not a legitimate answer on a personal level. That is an individual choice. Just not a legitimate question requiring that answer on a test of which is assumed to be given to a potential demo jumper that needs to be able to plan. A disguised question that most would assume is meant as a test of one's ability to foresee different scenarios that one must plan for in order to make a safe successful jump. Whether or not they would or should actually make such a jump. Could one answer "don't" to the question of a jump next to a pumpkin patch in light winds because the testie has a phobia of pumpkins? Where does one actually have to formulate a decent response for the test. So it is not so much of a BS answer as that it is a BS question based on the REQUIRED answer.
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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craddock

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I recall setting an instructors examination paper, and included a Mr Bill question in the written section.



I remember having to answer a question about a demo jump, where the demo jumper would be dressed up as a witch, with broom and hat, plus the demo jump was to be at night and close to water. Question was, what to prepare and how to handle this. A number of people started writing like a full page how-to. The correct answer was: Don't :S

what I don't get is the negative attitude of some posters opposing that very legitimate answer....
once again - dz.com kangaroo-court

It is a BS answer. Where does one draw the line? Sure there are jumps that only a small subset of jumpers should be attempting to pull off, but if you are answering this question on a test you are at the very least going into an area where some of this subset lie. It was not a yes or no question. As was already said the "Don't" response could be applied across the board. To some whuffos it applies to every jump we do.

I have done jumps far more difficult talent wise than that, but the point of the question assumes the talent and focuses on the planning. It is a horse shit question if that was the correct response and belongs nowhere on a test. You become graded on the instructors own personal opinions and level of competency and that is just flat out wrong. A trick question has no business on that test

Edited to reiterate. I don't think anyone is saying it is not a legitimate answer on a personal level. That is an individual choice. Just not a legitimate question requiring that answer on a test of which is assumed to be given to a potential demo jumper that needs to be able to plan. A disguised question that most would assume is meant as a test of one's ability to foresee different scenarios that one must plan for in order to make a safe successful jump. Whether or not they would or should actually make such a jump. Could one answer "don't" to the question of a jump next to a pumpkin patch in light winds because the testie has a phobia of pumpkins? Where does one actually have to formulate a decent response for the test. So it is not so much of a BS answer as that it is a BS question based on the REQUIRED answer.


Very well stated.

To add my .02...one should have a somewhat well rounded background regarding the overall spectrum of the sport when being an instructor. That kinda is what the title infers.

Though you may not personally feel doing a jump of that type is a good idea, let's face it - somebody might want to try, so you should at the very least have some input that would help to make it safely successful.

If nothing else an answer like - "Direct the jumper to someone with a proven track record of planning & performing speciality jumps of that type" would be a more productive response than 'don't'.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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since its just me, that wont do anyone any good. ;) Im al for common sense and letting experienced people make their own decisions. Let the DZO´s do their "crater management" (you go bowling, you are oke on that tiny parachute), they have a far bigger stake then any committee ever will have.

Hey, if you wanna do crazy proxy jumps in a wingsuit without a reserve, combined with brooms and mr bills, go right ahead. But dont tell me (as a committee) I should not even consider jumping with a broom when you condone and seem to promote the latter...

To me this seems really basic and simple stuff, even someone who would write the rules for a pissing contest in a brewery could understand. I dont want to live in a sad reality where I would have to join a committee to point this super evident stuff out.:S

Besides that, IMO to many people have a horse in the race or are stuck up in their own "im right, your wrong" mentality (exhibit A the exam question posted by the OP).

Whats the merit of a question and answer like that? Really? You tell me?

Whats the merit of emailing me proxy jumps without a reserve when the same organization states that this is completely against their rules? (btw in the same email was an annual report explicitly saying "we should do more research on the conditions to safely jump with wingsuits", does that include using reserves?) Whats the merit of that stuff mr Baksteen? Please enlighten me... (since its just me you can surely explain these situations, right?)

Oh for all the other readers, skydiving in the Netherlands is pretty great (pretty flat = lots of outs ;) ) besides the bureaucrats, Im not bitter or angry just very disappointed :)

Parachute gear garage sale at :http://www.usedparachutes.eu

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Easy tiger... :)B|

Other than that ( since someone else opened the can of worms / line of questioning) I'd trust some people with a nighttime witchhunt broomstick demo any day of the week but the fact of the matter is I wouldn't trust most of you with correctly tying your shoe-laces or your necktie :)
Thank G'd I'm retired... ;)

If you can get your plans past Airtwardo and/or riggerrob and/or John Mitchell I do not exclude beforehand the possibilitty you might survive some stupid shit... :S

Doesn't make stupid shit any less stupid...


"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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rastapara

since its just me, that wont do anyone any good. ;) Im al for common sense and letting experienced people make their own decisions. Let the DZO´s do their "crater management" (you go bowling, you are oke on that tiny parachute), they have a far bigger stake then any committee ever will have.

Hey, if you wanna do crazy proxy jumps in a wingsuit without a reserve, combined with brooms and mr bills, go right ahead. But dont tell me (as a committee) I should not even consider jumping with a broom when you condone and seem to promote the latter...

To me this seems really basic and simple stuff, even someone who would write the rules for a pissing contest in a brewery could understand. I dont want to live in a sad reality where I would have to join a committee to point this super evident stuff out.:S

Besides that, IMO to many people have a horse in the race or are stuck up in their own "im right, your wrong" mentality (exhibit A the exam question posted by the OP).

Whats the merit of a question and answer like that? Really? You tell me? Whats the merit of emailing me proxy jumps without a reserve when the same organization states that this is completely against their rules? (btw in the same email was an annual report explicitly saying "we should do more research on the conditions to safely jump with wingsuits", does that include using reserves?) Whats the merit of that stuff mr Baksteen? Please enlighten me... (since its just me you can surely explain these situations, right?)

Oh for all the other readers, skydiving in the Netherlands is pretty great (pretty flat = lots of outs ;) ) besides the bureaucrats, Im not bitter or angry just very disappointed :)



I think the merits of that question have been clearly pointed out.

An Instructor rating in many countries is a prerequisite for someone to run a DZ holding responsibility for the safety of all jumpers on the DZ at all times.

As an examiner I want to know if this candidate has both the skydiving experience, and analytical thought process to come up with a safe way of carrying out or allowing many different types of unusual jumps, as well as the knowledge of when to veto something that is obviously a risk to life and limb, before I pass him the responsibility for the lives of others.

I am looking at both his judgement and reasoning ability.

That is the whole point of an exam, and my role as an examiner.

And that is exactly what posters on here have pointed out.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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As an examiner I want to know if this candidate has both the skydiving experience, and analytical thought process to come up with a safe way of carrying out or allowing many different types of unusual jumps, as well as the knowledge of when to veto something that is obviously a risk to life and limb, before I pass him the responsibility for the lives of others.



Agreed. But if the highest scoring answer is a simple "you dont" it kind of limits the evaluation of the analytically thought process. At least IMO.

To rephrase: whats the merit of a question like that with the correct answer being "you dont"...

I will refrain from venting my frustrations any more before this becomes a threat hijack. I want to end on a note, something my grandpa always said:

If you are going to dangerous stuff, you better do it really carefully

Cheers
Parachute gear garage sale at :http://www.usedparachutes.eu

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rastapara

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As an examiner I want to know if this candidate has both the skydiving experience, and analytical thought process to come up with a safe way of carrying out or allowing many different types of unusual jumps, as well as the knowledge of when to veto something that is obviously a risk to life and limb, before I pass him the responsibility for the lives of others.



Agreed. But if the highest scoring answer is a simple "you dont" it kind of limits the evaluation of the analytically thought process. At least IMO.

To rephrase: whats the merit of a question like that with the correct answer being "you dont"...

I will refrain from venting my frustrations any more before this becomes a threat hijack. I want to end on a note, something my grandpa always said:

If you are going to dangerous stuff, you better do it really carefully

Cheers



Aha, I see the problem. This thread was actually taken from another one which was discussing the fatality with the Mr Bill. I agree with you completely, as my posts(and a few others) show.

The "you don't" answer was one given by someone else as an answer to the question set in an exam, by someone else about the broomstick jump.

My point (as a few others said) was that this was a ridiculous answer to a question which should never have been asked in an examination, as it doesn't examine anything of the candidates ability to reason out an answer. It was probably only worth 1 mark if asked with a "you don't" answer in mind, which as you say should not be in an exam in the first place.

The Mr Bill question I asked was worth 15 marks, obviously requiring a well reasoned answer.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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