England: Ban plasma TV's

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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The market has decided that the costs of environmental damage are not as important. The decision is rational. It reflects the wants and desires of the purchasers.

Costs are not part of the puchaser's decision; prices are part of the demand function, costs are part of the supply function. When a cost is not part of the supply function it is called an externality and is problematic for the robustness of the free market model since it violates the assumption of perfect information.
For example if Billvon erects solar panels on a tower in his yard and the shade kills his neighbour's tomato garden the value of the tomatoes is external to his production costs (unless he internalized the cost by compensating the neighbour). If he sells you the power the value of the tomatoes has nothing to do with your consumption decision. You are ignorant of the cost absorbed by the neighbour; this is where the perfect information problem comes in.
One way to internalize environmental costs connected with energy consumption is by creating a carbon tax, another is tradeable emission credits such as those being created for the purpose of Kyoto compliance. Both of these systems are problematic, but probably both are superior to variable standard solutions such as banning one product but allowing another.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Someone wants to ban Plasma TVs? I don't care, I don't own one. But if you want to ban my LCDs.

"From my dead hands" - Charlton Heston.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[kelpdiver 2]

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If for some reason they pass this law, will those that already own plasma TVs get grandfathered in? Would kinda suck to spend all that money for one and find out it's banned.

Of course they would be grandfathered. Such a bill would say - as of Jan 1, 2008, no Plasma TVs will be saleable in the UK. Furthermore, no large screen TVs that is not Energy Saver certified will be saleable after Jan 1, 2009.

It's no different from the California proposal to ban incandescent light bulbs.

Governments are going to have to start making these calls as power infrastructure is maxed out. Power generation is one of the largest sources of pollution and the consequences of outages is very serious.

The market answer is the stupid answer on this subject. No products have the true cost indicated by the price tag, though the fridge comes close with annual estimated power costs.

[jakee 1,340]

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It's not a proposed law mate. Someone probably stood up on BBC parliament and said something about high energy consumption and a 'journalist' from The Sun picked up on it because there wasn't any stories of 'aliens had sex with my wife' or 'child raised by monkey'

It's not even that.

It's the suggestion from a think tank set up by the opposition party. It's hardly on the verge of being national policy.

It's almost as ridiculous as when John tried to make out that parliament was thinking about banning kitchen knives when actually it was only a suggestion in a Scottish journal of medicine

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Amazon 7]

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John likes to throw it out there as hard fact of our crazy society and how we are letting the government walk all over us

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUDE

You are the man... embrace your power of being able to walk all over the wee folk.

[jakee 1,340]

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Why not add a couple hundred euros to the price of it?

Would that extra few hundred Euros be the price tag of importing the item from a country that actually uses Euros?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[lawrocket 3]

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The market, as currently structured, is incapable of making a rational decision.

The market **could** decide **if** the costs of goods and services reflected the costs of sustainability and repairing environmental damage. Which, at present, they don't. We are currently passing along the costs of cleaning up our messes to our decendants.

Applying this logic, the market never has made a rational decision, for environmental damages was not part fo the market consideration.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[georgerussia 0]

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Governments are going to have to start making these calls as power infrastructure is maxed out. Power generation is one of the largest sources of pollution and the consequences of outages is very serious.

And the people are still against building new power plants (especially nuclear ones).
I think they should be forced to put their money where their mouth is. If you are environmentalist, who likes to talk about "protecting the environment", and therefore is against new power plants - force them to limit their own energy consumption for something like 2kW max per home. Cannot do it? So don't talk about environment, you're being hypocrite.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[nathaniel 0]

I wonder what proportion of GB's energy demand is due to plasma TVs...

If energy waste is what they're concerned about, why can't they just tax energy? It's not like there aren't meters in everybody's household. Make a progressive energy tax. Go above two standard deviations (or your favorite threshold) and let the rates skyrocket.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[kallend 1,822]

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The market, as currently structured, is incapable of making a rational decision.

The market **could** decide **if** the costs of goods and services reflected the costs of sustainability and repairing environmental damage. Which, at present, they don't. We are currently passing along the costs of cleaning up our messes to our decendants.

Applying this logic, the market never has made a rational decision, for environmental damages was not part fo the market consideration.

Which is why we got places like Love Canal and other Superfund sites, dead lakes in the Adirondacks, and the Cuyahoga River fires.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

Or what about the environmental destruction in and around governmental facilities?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[crozby 0]

I voted 'let the market decide'. But I agree that something needs doing about this:

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On packaging, the Tory group proposes "take-back" schemes under which consumers could return packaging waste to shops, ensuring products were better designed.

Doesn't anyone else get jarred off with the amount of packaging that gets binned as soon as they get the supermarket shop home?

[kallend 1,822]

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Or what about the environmental destruction in and around governmental facilities?

That is, in the long term, part of the price paid by the owners (the people).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Governments are going to have to start making these calls as power infrastructure is maxed out. Power generation is one of the largest sources of pollution and the consequences of outages is very serious.

And the people are still against building new power plants (especially nuclear ones).
I think they should be forced to put their money where their mouth is. If you are environmentalist, who likes to talk about "protecting the environment", and therefore is against new power plants - force them to limit their own energy consumption for something like 2kW max per home. Cannot do it? So don't talk about environment, you're being hypocrite.

I don't follow what you're proposing. People who suggest energy efficiency must stay below a threshold, while those people who are the actual problem need do nothing different? The problem is that like with gas and SUVs, even doubling the price only slightly discourages consumption.

Having everyone use CFLs instead of incandescents would drop evening power usage 300 or 400 watts for say 4 hours (about 70% savings).

TVs
Average plasma: 328 watts
Average rear-projection: 208 watts
Average LCD: 193 watts
Average CRT: 146 watts

I don't think that the 120 watts is enough savings to outright ban a plasma, esp since it isn't installed in every home. The really big 'luxury' consumers of power are the AC units and the pool heaters can really result in a shocking power bill.

You're left with a choice, though. Do nothing and in time local areas will start refusing housing starts, just as have been caused in the past by water shortages. Or you need to accept more coal fired power.

[georgerussia 0]

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I don't follow what you're proposing. People who suggest energy efficiency must stay below a threshold, while those people who are the actual problem need do nothing different?

Yes, this is correct. According to the polls mentioned on TV, the majority does not support building new power plants "to protect the environment". So if that majority, which supports this position, restricted itself voluntarely in energy consumption, there would be no need for more power plants, and energy consumption (and pollution level, obviously) would drop.

The problem here is that very few people would put their money where their mouth is, and agree to lower their standard of living in favor of environment. Next time you see an active environmentalist, ask him to show his electricity bill.

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Or you need to accept more coal fired power.

I'd prefer nuclear, but coal is fine as well.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Zep 0]

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Don't ever quote The Sun again

Because it's the English version of the National Enquirer

Gone fishing

[kelpdiver 2]

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Yes, this is correct. According to the polls mentioned on TV, the majority does not support building new power plants "to protect the environment". So if that majority, which supports this position, restricted itself voluntarely in energy consumption, there would be no need for more power plants, and energy consumption (and pollution level, obviously) would drop.

The problem here is that very few people would put their money where their mouth is, and agree to lower their standard of living in favor of environment. Next time you see an active environmentalist, ask him to show his electricity bill.

No, the problem is that like any other public good, it is abused by the public. Nevermind the general problem with population growth.

(There's something really funny about the assertion that the environmentalists are the ones sucking down all the power)

[Skyrad 0]

Its a comic rather than a 'newspaper' and as the Conservatioves stand as much chance of winning the next election as Osama Bin Laden has of becoming the next Congressman of Texas. I wouldn't worry about it.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jakee 1,340]

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I don't think that the 120 watts is enough savings to outright ban a plasma, esp since it isn't installed in every home. The really big 'luxury' consumers of power are the AC units and the pool heaters can really result in a shocking power bill.

Bear in mind that in the UK very, very few private homes actually have AC or pools. It just isn't that hot here.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[wmw999 2,311]

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Next time you see an active environmentalist, ask him to show his electricity bill.

My last electric bill was $97.18. I don't have solar powered anything. Sounds like a lot until you realize I live in Houston, TX, and have a 2600 sq.ft. house (240 sq. meters). It's been a cool summer for us, but not all that cool.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"England: Ban plasma TV's "

When they do, Y'all are welcome to come and watch telly in Scotland, birthplace of its inventor.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Remster 26]

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"England: Ban plasma TV's "

When they do, Y'all are welcome to come and watch telly in Scotland, birthplace of its inventor.

Who the hell are you?

Remster

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Who the hell are you? "

Some subersive deviant that's been busy advising the Tories on energy policies.....

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[pirana 0]

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Maybe a ban on Christmas lights would be a better way to both save energy and comply with Osama bin Laden's request for everyone to convert to Islam?

Islam doesn't use lights for Christmas?

Sacrilege!

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley