Recommended Posts
QuoteIf he had not participated, the killer would not have been able to kill his victim. Holding accomplices accountable to the fullest extent will make other potential "drivers" find excuses not to participate.
Such sentences do not deter. Lengthy prison terms do not deter. If they did, more prisons would not be built. The oppisite would occur. Prisons would be torn down.
I have no sympathy for this guy. I'm only questioning whether the sentence warrants the level of participation.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
Richards 0
QuoteSuch sentences do not deter. Lengthy prison terms do not deter. If they did, more prisons would not be built. The oppisite would occur. Prisons would be torn down.
I have heard this argument before but has there really been an extensive study on it? I have heard other "facts" that have stated the opposite of what you just said. How do we know there isn't another factor that is outweighing the effect of the deterence which if removed would allow the deterence to work? Granted there are some that will be bad regardless of what deterents there are but, there must also be a certain percentage of the population that will be detered. I have seen this happen in an area that I used to live in when the police finally decided to crack-down on drug dealers. They were using old school methods that social workers have claimed are "proven not to work" yet I myself noticed that in fact the area did clean up. Many studies have indicated for example that DUI is on the decline. Can you honestly say that changing it from a minor crime (fine, impounding) to a felony that could destroy your life, while throwing in random roadblocks that popped up by surprise did not influence this? I have heard more people state " you could get arrested and lose your career" as a deterence than "gosh DUI is just immoral"
Either way, even if it will not deter them, it will guarantee that at least one willing accomplice will never be able to be an accomplice again. If it seems cruel and unusual, well....too bad. Society will not be worse off for his demise.
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.
I don't believe that the answer is to quickly lock people away. As for the guy in the op, yes he should do serious time. I don't think his part warrants death. A very long while in prison for his part is my opinion.
Other crimes are equally sentence unfairly.
http://www.stanford.edu/class/siw198q/modelppr/omar.htm
Just from a quick google search I found a number of studies that show that laws such as MMS do not work. The number of prisoners show this to be true.
This link is to the Bureau of Justice. There are also pdf's and spreadsheets on the subject.
http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/glance/incrt.htm
Another interesting article;
http://www.slate.com/id/2158317/
I think that prison should be reserved for the violent. Most none violent offender can be rehabilitated. I am one of those. I was just in court today. My last and final time in front of the judge. He and the prosecuter have determined that I am no longer a danger to society. I was a repeat DUI offender. I never wrecked a car nor did I hurt anyone. I did break the law and knowingly did so. The prosecutor in St. Charles, Mo., Tim Braun wanted me to do 5 years in the state pen. What good would it had done? I did far better not being incarcerated. Had I gone to prison, I would had walked out of there more likely to offend again. Recidivism often is a problem but at different levels depending on the offense. An alcohol offender tends to repeat a number of times before they learn not to drink. 7 dwi's for me. Prison would had only delayed offenses. Most arose from riding at high rates of speed. My first was in 77. Then 79, 84, 86. One was in Sturgis in 92 for a 100'+ burnout
(I have the police report and can send ya a scan if you think that is bullshit) leaving the Broken Spoke heading towards Buffalo Chip. I had dranked only 2 the entire day and just had those two before leaving the bar. One night in jail and then a $400.00 fine the next day. I was drinking only hours after leaving court and got another in 94 and then one in 95. To some extent the thought of imprisonment weighs partly on my desicion not to drink but the great weight is the help that kept me from drinking. I did all of the states programs. Prison programs or lack of have shown to be only effective if continued after release. Incareration tend to cultivate ill regards for the system. A good number of guys I rode with back in the day are in prison. Most are repeaters. None were in any type of program other than monthly meets with their parole officers. The guys that I do know who where placed in probation programs have fared better and still doing good. Other than those involved in violent offenses, there are other options that should be considered for those convicted. (I personally did not think that even Scooter Libby deserved prison and the same for Martha Steward or any one convicted of such types of offenses. Huge fines and monitoring is the better option. Even though some can easily afford the fines.)
From what I have read tonite on a number of websites, the majority being the Federal Bereau of Justice and State Justice Departments, drugs/alcohol tend to have the highest rate, violent offenders tend to come in below drugs.
Programs designed to reduce the number of repeat offenders show that if offered do reduce the number of repeaters. This link is report from Ca. PREP program. It is interesting.
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:ss6rPo4rM00J:www.secondchanceprogram.org/pdf/CSUSM_Report-Summary_RecidivismFindings.pdf+recidivism+report+2006&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
jenfly00 0
QuoteQuotedon't know all 50 laws on this subject. I'd would say that the killer is guilty of murder. Everybody else is guilty of accomplis to murder.
In Texas, they are Guilty of Murder and face the death penalty. That is why this person is going to be executed. That is the Law there.
Perhaps you weren't paying attention, it's the law that is the center of the discussion.
-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".
"O brave new world that has such people in it".
mnealtx 0
From the Bureau of Justice, in regards to recidivism:
Looks like recidivism is STILL a problem...unfortunately.
Quote* 67.5% of prisoners released in 1994 were rearrested within 3 years, an increase over the 62.5% found for those released in 1983
* The rearrest rate for property offenders, drug offenders, and public-order offenders increased significantly from 1983 to 1994. During that time, the rearrest rate increased:
- from 68.1% to 73.8% for property offenders
- from 50.4% to 66.7% for drug offenders
- from 54.6% to 62.2% for public-order offenders
* The rearrest rate for violent offenders remained relatively stable (59.6% in 1983 compared to 61.7% in 1994).
QuoteAmong drug offenders, the rate of reconviction increased significantly, going from 35.3% in 1983 to 47.0% in 1994.
QuoteThe 1994 recidivism study estimated that within 3 years, 51.8% of prisoners released during the year were back in prison either because of a new crime for which they received another prison sentence, or because of a technical violation of their parole. This rate was not calculated in the 1983 study.
Looks like recidivism is STILL a problem...unfortunately.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
QuoteQuoteI agree that people should be held accountable. Illegally starting wars and torturing is high up on my list of bad things. But I think that execution of everyone involved would be excessive.
Delete that last sentence and you could teach physics at the college level.
Ya think?
QuoteAnd that is what every account that I read has stated. Nowhere did any article state that he had intimate knowledge beforehand that the trigger would be pulled. Why should he? It was not pulled in the other holdups.
He knew for an absolute fact that he was driving his Buddy around to Commit Armed Robbery.
The fact that someone got shot is a very distinct possibility when you commit Armed Robbery. When you stick a Gun in someone’s face to ROB them, The Gun could go off.
This guy is in no way innocent.
This is NOTHING like Drunk Driving, We are talking ARMED ROBBERY. there is nothing in your analogy that makes sense at all.
He did not just allow this happen, He was knowingly and actively participating.
QuoteAs for the guy being reliable? I believe that you would say that he is reliable had he said that this guy knew damn well that he was going to commit murder.
If it could be proven beyond the shadow of doubt, then yes, I would say he is every bit as guilty of the crime of murder.
He knew that his buddy was getting out of the car, Pulling a Gun on Random People and Robbing them. They did this multiple times that night. They were driving around LOOKING for people to do this to. They did it repeatedly. Eventually someone did get shot. That can only be expected when you are robbing people at gun point.
QuoteSuch sentences do not deter. Lengthy prison terms do not deter.
Execution Guarantees the person will NOT commit anther violent crime.
Does that deter others?? That is debatable but you can bet it deters at least the one being executed.
QuotePerhaps you weren't paying attention, it's the law that is the center of the discussion.
Funny.. All I see is people trying to defend this guy that was committing Armed Robberies.
I don’t see anyone else discussing the Law itself. Just trying to make a Victim out of the Criminal.
mnealtx 0
QuoteQuoteSuch sentences do not deter. Lengthy prison terms do not deter.
Execution Guarantees the person will NOT commit anther violent crime.
Does that deter others?? That is debatable but you can bet it deters at least the one being executed.
Amazing, isn't it? Interview with prisoners show that they avoid homeowners with guns because they're afraid to be shot/killed, but *SOME*how, the death penalty isn't a deterrent... go figure.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
The death penalty isn't a deterrent because nobody thinks they're going to get caught, just like increased speeding fines don't deter speeders. What acts as the deterrent is police presence or another immediate threat.
Quote
but in that state, you do for accomplis (how the hell do I spell that word) to murder
You're absolutely right. The legality of the execution isn't my argument. Whether or not the law is f'd up is. I don't have a problem with the death penalty for certain crimes. And in my opinion, the person who deserved to be executed was.
ryoder 1,381
QuoteI remember a case in Florida a few yrs. ago. A hitchiker's driver was an armed bank robber, got into a shootout w/ the cops. Guy tried to surrender during the shootout. Perp killed a cop. Hitchiker went down for cop killing. Don't know what the outcome of that case was tho. Pretty fucked up if you ask me.
I hope I'm never in the wrong place at the right time.
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
I hope I'm never in the wrong place at the right time. Another really fucked up case was right here in Denver a few years ago. A woman was arrested by the cops and was in their custody. A few minutes later, her boyfriend killed a cop. They charged her with the murder.
Google for "Lisl Auman"."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.
QuoteAnother really fucked up case was right here in Denver a few years ago. A woman was arrested by the cops and was in their custody. A few minutes later, her boyfriend killed a cop. They charged her with the murder.
That was overturned.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/4322295/detail.html
Also (like this article) you left out several important facts..
1) She organized the Robbery.
2) She recruited the help.
3) While Evading Police, She handed a Gun to the guy that shot the cop.
Quote
Funny.. All I see is people trying to defend this guy that was committing Armed Robberies.
Where? I've seen a number of posts that point out that he should be punished but I haven't read any defense of his actions.
QuoteQuotePerhaps you weren't paying attention, it's the law that is the center of the discussion.
Funny.. All I see is people trying to defend this guy that was committing Armed Robberies.
I don’t see anyone else discussing the Law itself. Just trying to make a Victim out of the Criminal.
Uhhhm... If there are any post by someone defending this guy, I must had missed them. I'm certianly not defending the dirtbag. I am questiong whether his level of participation warrants capitol punishment or a lengthy sentence of 20, 30, 50 years? Maybe life, with or without the possibility of parol?
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
Amazon 7
QuoteUhhhm... If there are any post by someone defending this guy, I must had missed them. I'm certianly not defending the dirtbag. I am questiong whether his level of participation warrants capitol punishment or a lengthy sentence of 20, 30, 50 years? Maybe life, with or without the possibility of parol?
That will in NO way satisfy the right wing conservative blood lust for revenge.
So much for all that Christian forgiveness for those who have sinned.
They are usurping GOD's role to judge others as always.
Just more state sponsored murder from those in the religious wrong incapable of following their OWN rules in the 10 Commandments.
QuoteLooks like recidivism is STILL a problem...unfortunately.
And I have stated as such.
The level of recidivism shows that something is seriously not working. The circulation of repeat offenders and the high number of first time offenders is evidence that many programs such as prison counseling, deterent messages do not work and that the lack of intense follow up after release only adds to the problem. Consider the year 2002 the U.S. prison population went above 2million prisoners. If current programs were effective and deterence actually worked, the number should had gone the opposite direction of up. I see a need for intense early intervention before kids hit the age where they are fully responsible for all of their actions. Even now some crimes make kids liable as if they are adults. Current deterence tactics are not working as they should and greater education is needed. Maybe, an hour in school eachday discussing the consequences of their actions should they commit a crime?
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
QuoteJust more state sponsored murder from those in the religious wrong incapable of following their OWN rules in the 10 Commandments.
No, The MURDER here was the guy that was Shot in his own driveway.
As for you ranting about Religion.. I don’t think you will EVER see me in any for of religious debate. I will never claim to be or not to be any religion. This has nothing to do with “Religious Right”. The “Religious” Right can Suck my Ass for all I care. (Only thing I hate worse than a Tree huggin, Filthy, Patchouli Wearing Lazy Hippie is a Bible Thumper)
QuoteThat will in NO way satisfy the right wing conservative blood lust for revenge.
Nothing to do with Revenge, It has to do with making SURE it doesn’t happen again. See if you just put this guy in jail for a very long time, History has taught us there is a VERY strong chance he will just do this or worse again. In fact the longer he is in jail, the more likely he is to commit more violent crimes once released
You are the one trying to Vilify those that just want the real criminals eliminated.
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites