shropshire 0 #26 July 19, 2007 <> Sorry but that's the same logic as MH has been writing and it's seriously flawed. The silent majority are not the keepers of the criminal minority, not in Islam, not in Chritianity, not in Europe and not in America.... I know that there are British criminal but I do nothing about it a leave it to the police . There are drug based criminal in America... have you done anything about them or do you leave that to the police too? Why try to treat one segment of the world community differently than others? - FASHION! (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #27 July 19, 2007 Quote Mark, what is your problem? . Not enough bandwidth to answer that questionYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #28 July 19, 2007 Quote<> Sorry but that's the same logic as MH has been writing and it's seriously flawed. The silent majority are not the keepers of the criminal minority, not in Islam, not in Chritianity, not in Europe and not in America.... I know that there are British criminal but I do nothing about it a leave it to the police . There are drug based criminal in America... have you done anything about them or do you leave that to the police too? Why try to treat one segment of the world community differently than others? - FASHION! To answer your question directly above: Because they insist on being treated differently. They insist on being recognized as something special based on their religious beliefs. Not that everyone is getting in our faces and saying, "I'm a Muslim and I demand special treatment." But, a Muslim in the workplace may demand accommodation to allow them to exercise their religious beliefs, etc. I see the perspective you're presenting, but don't agree with it. Example: What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear the words or think of a "Muslim" or "Islam"? What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "American"? What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "Christian"? What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "Englishman"? Tell me you don't see it differently, especially across the pond in light of recent events?So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #29 July 19, 2007 Sorry Gawain.... but personally I dont agree. <<They insist on being >> Who are THEY? this sort of generalisation has been built by the media. It's so meaningless in real terms. They [Muslims] are such a geographic and social diverse group as to make no sense at all.. One would not say that ALL white/Black/Green people are a single group, where the overriding characteristic is the colour of ones skin. <> - what is the 1st thing that has been PLANTED into our minds? A Venn diagram of Muslims/Christians etc... would include so many sub-groups. Being a Muslim/Christian/Buddhist etc.. is NOT the primary descriptor for MOST people. My religion (or lack of it) does not define me exclusively. <> - That is what I'm trying to tell you that I'm TRYING to do... I blame those criminal elements NOT an entire media created group. Our main enemy is Hate and fear... Our 2 main enemies are hate, fear and distrust... Our 3... etc... etc (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #30 July 19, 2007 QuoteI see the perspective you're presenting, but don't agree with it. Example: What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear the words or think of a "Muslim" or "Islam"? What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "American"? What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "Christian"? What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "Englishman"? Tell me you don't see it differently, especially across the pond in light of recent events? Somewhat flawed argument, there will always be the difference between "us" and "them". What's the first thing that comes into a Palestinian's mind when he hears the word "American"?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #31 July 19, 2007 Quote Example: What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear the words or think of a "Muslim" or "Islam"? It depends on what the source is. If it's outside this forum then I think of a follower of a major religion. No different than Christian. But in my mind's eye they are indeed wearing different clothes What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "American"? Damn it, I wish you people would vote! What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "Christian"? See above What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "Englishman"? It's a toss up between Patrick Stewart and Benny Hill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #32 July 19, 2007 Quote Quote >Wow. You really are a bigot. And your one warning. In one thread, one calls someone a bigot and it stands with no warning, but one pops up here? Same word, same forum, similar context, different response?I guess things are as I thought they were. [edited to add: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2886677;#2886677 Funny how that works. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #33 July 19, 2007 Quote Quote >Wow. You really are a bigot. And your one warning. In one thread, one calls someone a bigot and it stands with no warning, but one pops up here? Same word, same forum, similar context, different response?I guess things are as I thought they were. [edited to add: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2886677;#2886677 Are you saying BillVon is a closet Mormon!?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #34 July 19, 2007 Quote Speaking of religious intolerance, here's something I have never understood. * Religious people consider their faith to be truth, i.e., factual. * If I walk up to a religious person and say that the sky is not blue, they will likely think I'm nuts but not particularly offensive because all I have done is contradict something they know to be factual. * If I walk up to a religious person and say that their religion is a bunch of bullshit, they will likely find that quite offensive, yet all I have done is contradict something they "know" to be factual. Why is that? Walt Most people, regardless of there faith, don't take inflamatory insults too well. Back to the OP topic, there's a lot of guilt by association with both Muslims and Christians. People tend to judge any member by the worst behavior of those of the same faith. Bigorty based on bad stereotypes. Regarding that kind of behavior on this site, people offer some "interesting" rationalizations to excuse their bigotry. It is what it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #35 July 19, 2007 Quote Funny how that works. Indeed. Quote [Are you saying BillVon is a closet Mormon!? Hmm...hadn't considered that possibility. Let me think about it for a moment...... Nope, don't think so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick 0 #36 July 19, 2007 QuoteNo there isn't. It's all part of the same problem, and that's where there's a disconnect. The adherents of the so-called "religion of peace" aren't speaking up against the violence, which implies that they are either cowards or sympathizers. Either way, they don't deserve any respect. Looks like what your saying is that, due to the actions of a limited few you have made a decision on the rest of that group (painting them all with the same brush). Nick Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #37 July 19, 2007 Quote What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear the words or think of a "Muslim" or "Islam"? Dark-skinned QuoteWhat's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "American"? Prosperous living QuoteWhat's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "Christian"? It depends on who I hear it from. QuoteWhat's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "Englishman"? Bad teeth QuoteTell me you don't see it differently, especially across the pond in light of recent events? Cultural answers to these questions will vary by where you are and who you are asking. A Columbian will likely answer differently from a Russian who will answer differently from an Iranian who will answer differently from a Canadian. And none of them would be any more or less correct than the others. When the answer can vary wildly and yet remain valid, the question's only use is in what it says about the person/culture being asked, not the person/culture being asked about. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick 0 #38 July 19, 2007 QuoteWhat's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear the words or think of a "Muslim" or "Islam"? Mosque QuoteWhat's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "American"? Fat and greedy QuoteWhat's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "Christian"? Annoying Quote What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "Englishman"? Castle Nick Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #39 July 19, 2007 QuoteQuoteShould we be polite to those with swastikas on their arms? Respectful to those who would see certain races demoted to second class citizens? Never denounce those who call for homosexuals to be reviled? As long as they return the favor, yes. Expressing opinions is ok. Why? If someone's opinions are abhorrent, why is it wrong to straight up tell them that?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #40 July 19, 2007 QuoteWhat's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear the words or think of a "Muslim" or "Islam"? Nation of Islam, Louis Farakan QuoteWhat's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "American"? narrow minded, ill informed QuoteWhat's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "Christian"? GOD botherers Quote What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear "Englishman"? QE IIYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #41 July 19, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteShould we be polite to those with swastikas on their arms? Respectful to those who would see certain races demoted to second class citizens? Never denounce those who call for homosexuals to be reviled? As long as they return the favor, yes. Expressing opinions is ok. Why? If someone's opinions are abhorrent, why is it wrong to straight up tell them that? Nothing wrong with that. People can disagree in a civil way, but the context here is "intolerance" and to me, that implies *not* being very civil. Generally, I consider anyone who labels someone a "racist" or a "bigot" to be as intolerant as the people the denounce. Pure hypocrisy. How is calling someone a racist or bigot all that different from calling them any other name? To me, it's not. "Fuck you, faggot!" "Fuck you, racist!" "Fuck you, liberal!" "Fuck you, Muslim!" "Fuck you, Jew!" or whatever. The only difference as far as I can tell is one of current popularity. Times change. 40 or 50 years ago, hating Communists was in vogue. At various times hating all sorts of people has been popular. These days, it's "racists" that are supposedly the enemy. Even though I happen to be white, it doesn't bother me to share space with someone who hates white people. I may find it annoying if that's all the talk about but I'm not going to condemn them for their thoughts. Same for someone you would label as a racist or Nazi or whatever. It's when people cross the line from thought to action that hurts others that bothers me. If I see a guy with swastika tattoos waving Nazi flags and talking shit about the races he doesn't like, I'm ok with that. If he attacks someone simply because of their ethnicity, I'm *not* ok with it. Make sense? Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #42 July 19, 2007 QuoteMake sense? Absolutely not.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #43 July 19, 2007 QuoteQuoteMake sense? Absolutely not. Ok, let's try it this way. Say, I'm a Klan member and I'm walking down the street in my Klan robe minding my own business. Is it ok for you to shoot the finger at me and yell, "Fuck you, Racist!!!"? If so, who's the intolerant person in that scenario? Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #44 July 19, 2007 What about lesser examples? This whole strand came up because you picked out someone who simply used the word bigot. What other words are off limits? If I hear talking about niggers is it acceptable for me to call him a racist? If I did would that make me intolerant?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #45 July 19, 2007 QuoteWhat about lesser examples? This whole strand came up because you picked out someone who simply used the word bigot. What other words are off limits? If I hear talking about niggers is it acceptable for me to call him a racist? If I did would that make me intolerant? Good question. Let's say you heard someone expressing his negative opinions about blacks in a civil way. For example, you're in a restaurant and you are sitting next at a table close to a table where two rednecks are sitting and they are having a private conversation talking about blacks making their lives nearly intolerable, and they are using terms like porch monkey, nigger, jungle bunny, brillo head, or whatever, and you are able to hear them *only* because you are sitting very close. In your opinion, are they being civil? Would calling them a name be civil? BTW, I don't consider *any* word to be off limits. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #46 July 19, 2007 QuoteIn your opinion, are they being civil? Would calling them a name be civil? Now there's the question - do the people expressing those opinions deserve civility, and is it bigoted or intolerant to be uncivil in response to those opinions?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #47 July 19, 2007 QuoteQuoteIn your opinion, are they being civil? Would calling them a name be civil? Now there's the question - do the people expressing those opinions deserve civility, and is it bigoted or intolerant to be uncivil in response to those opinions? I think it's a pretty good question. It's not a matter of asking them to speak more quietly because they already are speaking quietly. Is it unreasonable for them to be expected to put boundaries on what is intended to be a private conversation? IMO it would be pure hypocrisy of someone who preaches against "intolerance" to act in an uncivil way toward them. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #48 July 19, 2007 >Say, I'm a Klan member and I'm walking down the street in my Klan >robe minding my own business. >Is it ok for you to shoot the finger at me and yell, "Fuck you, Racist!!!"? Counterexample. You're walking down the street wearing a "fuck you, asshole Klan racist!" T-shirt, and you pass said Klan guy watering his lawn. He gives you a dirty look but doesn't say anything. Who's the intolerant person? Do you think that someone might find a Klan robe to be as offensive as that shirt? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #49 July 19, 2007 Quote >Say, I'm a Klan member and I'm walking down the street in my Klan >robe minding my own business. >Is it ok for you to shoot the finger at me and yell, "Fuck you, Racist!!!"? Counterexample. You're walking down the street wearing a "fuck you, asshole Klan racist!" T-shirt, and you pass said Klan guy watering his lawn. He gives you a dirty look but doesn't say anything. Who's the intolerant person? Do you think that someone might find a Klan robe to be as offensive as that shirt? Fair enough. In my opinion, it's the t-shirt guy. Do I think someone might find a Klan robe to be as offensive as that shirt? No doubt there are plenty of people who would. A dirty look toward the Klan guy would be fine. Assault, screaming names and insults is not, IMO. edited to add: If I ever see a guy in a Klan robe watering his lawn, I'm gonna stop and talk with him to find out what his deal is!Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #50 July 19, 2007 QuoteI think it's a pretty good question. It's not a matter of asking them to speak more quietly because they already are speaking quietly. Is it unreasonable for them to be expected to put boundaries on what is intended to be a private conversation? That is a very different scenario to what sparked off this debate, which was differing opinions expressed in a public forum - not a private conversation.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
