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Darius11

Israel Crimes-Israeli Apartheid. From an Israelis point of view.

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Actually, Amazon has a fair question, but there's a twist:

True, perhaps I should have called it "poorly worded question alert".

seems to me, if side A ceased hostilities, then side B would keep killing for as long as they felt they needed to. In order to "balance the debt of lives".

Since both sides feel they are currently under the short end of the deal, it really doesn't matter which side you assign as side "A".

Quite true, and that level of balance in the debate is what I've been trying to promote

The first side that quits will take another few rounds of attacks, then the rest of the world (with some stupid exceptions) would rally around them and knock loose the other side as hyper-vengeful savages.

I'd think this might be a possibility, but ONLY if the news reporting of the events was balanced.

(this theory is also in absense from those around the world that take profit from the conflict and might keep adding wood to the fire in a stealthy way)

Also true, but then again that issue is almost always absent, regardless of the location of the conflict.

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Egypt and Israel found peace. I think that shows the Israelis are willing, as were the Egyptians.



Have you looked up the Arab Peace Initiative yet? Using the info that you provided, Israel moved back to pre-1967 lines. The recent Arab proposal just called for the 1967 lines to be recognized. Admittedly, other provisions like the right of return are more sticky, but that's why they call them "negotiations". One side seems to want to get them started.

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One side seems to want to get them started.



actually, more than one side want them started.
there is nothing new in this initiative and its very clear to everyone that the final borders will be around the 1967 line. the two major open issues are jerusalem (solvable in a creative way) and the right of return which is a big issue (dont forget there were refugees on both sides).

the only factor currently refusing to sit and talk is the palestinians (led by Hamas). as long as they refuse to accept exisitng treaties, what's the point in signing new ones?

O
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

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One side seems to want to get them started.



actually, more than one side want them started.
there is nothing new in this initiative and its very clear to everyone that the final borders will be around the 1967 line.

I've heard you make this claim before but the maps I've seen and the continued building of homes in the West Bank would indicate otherwise.

the two major open issues are jerusalem (solvable in a creative way) and the right of return which is a big issue (dont forget there were refugees on both sides).

I'm not sure how to handle the right of return concept, short of the single state solution mentioned on the other thread.

the only factor currently refusing to sit and talk is the palestinians (led by Hamas). as long as they refuse to accept exisitng treaties, what's the point in signing new ones?

From my perspective, the US is also missing from the table. And we're the ones who have the financial ability to get things moving.

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I've heard you make this claim before but the maps I've seen and the continued building of homes in the West Bank would indicate otherwise.



History shows otherwise. Israel has taken down settlements for peace before.
you must understand that these lands are considered "home" to us just as much as they do for the Palestinians. what you call "stolen", I call liberated. yet i'm willing to give these lands for some peace and quiet (and the majority of Israelis think the same)

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I'm not sure how to handle the right of return concept, short of the single state solution mentioned on the other thread.


it won't solve anything. there was war and people were forced to move. almost a million arab jews were kicked out of their homes and found refuge in the newly founded Israel. my family had lost several houses in Hebron (during the 1930's riots) after living there for hundreds of years, and I dont expect to get them back.
2 states for 2 nations, the jewish people living in what will be Palestine will move to Israel and the palestinians will build a homeland for themselves.

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From my perspective, the US is also missing from the table. And we're the ones who have the financial ability to get things moving.



you are still ignoring the very basic point that the current PA (or what's left of it) is refusing to accept signed agreements, what's the point in having new ones?

O
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

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I've heard you make this claim before but the maps I've seen and the continued building of homes in the West Bank would indicate otherwise.



History shows otherwise. Israel has taken down settlements for peace before.
you must understand that these lands are considered "home" to us just as much as they do for the Palestinians. what you call "stolen", I call liberated.
And this is why we disagree

yet i'm willing to give these lands for some peace and quiet (and the majority of Israelis think the same)
Then there needs to be some indicator that Israel plans to end the occupation and is interested in withdrawal. Otherwise many will just quit reading after the word "liberated" in your post.


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I'm not sure how to handle the right of return concept, short of the single state solution mentioned on the other thread.


it won't solve anything. there was war and people were forced to move. almost a million arab jews were kicked out of their homes and found refuge in the newly founded Israel. my family had lost several houses in Hebron (during the 1930's riots) after living there for hundreds of years, and I dont expect to get them back.
2 states for 2 nations, the jewish people living in what will be Palestine will move to Israel and the palestinians will build a homeland for themselves.

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From my perspective, the US is also missing from the table. And we're the ones who have the financial ability to get things moving.



you are still ignoring the very basic point that the current PA (or what's left of it) is refusing to accept signed agreements, what's the point in having new ones?

Getting the parties involved in a peace process? If the peace proposal is to do nothing but say "they will never......" then it is assured that there will never be a chance at peace.

O

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Then there needs to be some indicator that Israel plans to end the occupation and is interested in withdrawal.



hmm lets see...
- Israel pulled out of Sinai , taking settelments down for peace with egypt.
- Israel has returned some land to Jordan (they didnt want the west bank back, and i can see why,,,)
- Israel has transferred lands to the PA based on the oslo accords so they could start to develop self rule
- after seeing that there is no one to negotiate with, Israel has pulled out of Gaza completely , forcing 15,000 people to leave their home. (we didnt expect peace, but we were hoping for some quiet, yet we got missiles....)

i think that should be enough indication.

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Getting the parties involved in a peace process?


i repeat my question. if you and I agree on something. then you say you will not honor thins agreement and that you don't even want to talk to me and recognize my right to exist, what's the point in talking about new agreements?
first honor the old agreements, then we can talk about new things.

O
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

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my family had lost several houses in Hebron (during the 1930's riots) after living there for hundreds of years, and I dont expect to get them back.



Apparently, you're Arab neighbors consider that to be just tough shit for you, even though the Jews weren't responsible for the riots and the Arab leadership of the time incited them. It is old history for which complaining/expecting compensation would be ridiculous. But now, after Arabs suffer, they want everything made right for them despite losing the wars they started. I think they should get a lot of money back from Arafat's widow.

I don't know how you are able to contain your emotions when responding to people that are so factually wrong on this forum.

Where are the future leaders like Anwar Sadat in the Arab world? He had a true change of heart, saw that hate and war wasn't in his people's best interest and sought peace. I wish they would surface and help out a bit more.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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OH REALLY MR FACT FINDER>>> they admitted to shooting it. SOS were called they continued bombing it..this is not a conspiracy belief... only a TARD would believe that. Try reading the book by the men on the ship. The USS LIBERTY was a spyship BUT sailing its FLAGS it took in LOW ALTITUDE FIRE..kinda hard to mistake flags then isnt it GENIUS?. Facts are that Isreal wanted to have an advantage without Egypt knowing ther were going to attack, and they knew the Liberty would report to Egypt. WE were the big watchdog then . This isnt a twin towers conspiracy deal. They wanted that ship and crew down so bad so that no report would happen THEY SHOT THE LIFERAFTS!!! Some reparations made, but considering that we continue dumping billions a year..whats the dif.

You cant bring back those 34 killed.
So if this was a MISTAKE...how come it was done with UNMARKED AIRCRAFT???

I see you research well before replying..DEE_DEE _DEE
:S
EDIT: Oh...I just looked where your from>>THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING. ITs not your duty to have to stand up for your governments wrongs...Im sure that book is probably illegal to have there so you could know the truth..eith that or you do and wont admit it. Nice dumb play on the "yah that ship that some actually think was intentional"

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well, there were 10 US official investigations, backed up by recordings that clearly show that even the israeli rescue helicopters dispatched thought they were rescueing egyptians at first.

friendly fire is very common in warfare, but some how i doubt there is any point in talking about it any more...
O
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

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The positive steps that Israel has taken, like withdrawing from Sinai and the Gaza withdrawal should be and are welcomed. However the oppression and basic human rights violations in Gaza and the West Bank continue.
First of all I'll state that I have no sympathy for the families who were removed from Gaza. They knew that their settlements were internationally illegal, they were paid to live there and they were paid handsomely to leave. While there were living there amongst 1.3 million Palestinians the 8000 Israeli settlers controlled 40% of the land and almost half of the water and needed 12,000 troops to protect them. Removing them was a good idea. However since the withdrawal the Palestinians have been imprisoned. According to the Carter Center there are now 1.4 million people, 3700/square kilometer in Gaza. It is surrounded by a separation barrier that is only penetrable through Israeli checkpoints and there is a single, personnel only opening into Egypt. Transportation by air and by sea is not permitted, even fishing boats can't leave the harbor.
(following excerpt from "Peace, not Apartheid")
"...workers are prevented from going to outside jobs, the import or export of food and other goods is severely restricted and often cut off completely, and the police, teachers, nurses and social workers are deprived of salaries. Per capita income has decreased 40 percent during the last three years, and the poverty rate has reached 70 percent. The U.N. Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food has stated that acute malnutrition in Gaza is already on the same scale as that seen in the poorer countries of the Southern Sahara, with more than half of all Palestinian families eating only one meal a day. This was the impact of Israel's unilateral withdrawal, even before Israel's massive bombardment and reinvasion in July 2006 after being provoked by Hamas militants.

As for your assertion that Hamas won't recognize previous agreements, that's not true. After Hamas was elected Prime Minister Haniyeh publicly stated that they are "ready for dialog" with the quartet and will recognize Israel if the Palestinian Authority negotiates with Israel and Palestinian people accept it. The US stated that Hamas had to recognize Israel first, renounce violence and honor the previous agreements. Israel's response was to target for assassination all 74 Hamas parliament members.
Apparently the majority of Palestinians and Israelis support a two state solution. It's the leadership that's causing the problem. The Israelis can't seem to come to an agreement themselves. Some want to abide by resolution 242 and go back to the 1967 borders in exchange for in peace. Some prefer to expand the settlements, build a wall, lock up the Palestinians and live in an apartheid situation similar to what is going on now. Olmert was elected on a promise that the settlements would cease, they haven't. He has also stated that he's not interested in negotiating until absolutely "all" acts of violence cease. That's unrealistic and he knows it. Meanwhile, the settlements continue to grow and the human rights abuse continues.
In a nutshell, UN resolution 242 is the accepted law of the land. Israel needs to respect it's 1967 borders (with minor modifications possible through land swap). The Quartet recognizes it, Israel has recognized it, the Palestinians recognize it. It's part of the "roadmap" and the Geneva initiative and it's the official US policy. And the obligation to abide by it has been reaffirmed by all parties in 1978 at Camp David, 1993 at Oslo and in the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative.
The parties involved are actually very close to being able to come to an agreement. Neither side just seems to be willing to drop their stupid prerequisites for negotiation. And I place the blame for this firmly in George Bush's policy of staying completely out any negotiations since he came into office. The White House even COMPLETELY IGNORED the 2003 Geneva Initiative. Powell embraced it publicly but we all know how much this White House listens to him. We have the power to get these groups together. We're not doing it and the US, Israel and the Palestinians are all poorer and less safe because of it.

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a few mistakes in your "facts"

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First of all I'll state that I have no sympathy for the families who were removed from Gaza.


well, that's an indication for your character, not for their right to live there

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However since the withdrawal the Palestinians have been imprisoned.


imprisoned by who? there is a clear border between Gaza and Israel and i don't think israel should maintain an open border with an enemy (and at the moment they are an enemy).
israel has continued to supply electricity and supplies through the border crossings (which doesnt really make sense when you get fired upon).
the Gaza strip has a border with egypt to, why don't they use it? (oh right , they just use it to bring in tons of explosives...)

you keep forgeting that the current ruler in Gaza has sworn to destory israel and has made endless attempts to do so. not allowing free transport of ships loaded with arms straight from Iran sounds very logical to me

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As for your assertion that Hamas won't recognize previous agreements, that's not true.



yes it is.
Hamas refuses to accept any previous agreements, they continue to fire rockets across the border for no reason.

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The US stated that Hamas had to recognize Israel first, renounce violence and honor the previous agreements. Israel's response was to target for assassination all 74 Hamas parliament members.


indeed the US has, and the rest of the world as well.
but Hamas never did.
btw, as long as Hamas is a terrorist group being a parliment member doesnt grant you any immunity. but to your point, Israel hasn;t assassined any Parliment members, it has arrested a few but don't let the facts confuse you.

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Olmert was elected on a promise that the settlements would cease,



indeed, there was a real hope here that the "trial" in gaza will prove that the Palestinians will take things seriously and start building a home for themselves rather than firing missiles across the border. supprt for additional withdrawls went down when it was obvious that when you leave the palestinians alone, they come after you seeking more violence.

I was a huge supporter of pulling out of Gaza, but now that missiles fly out of there and Hamas has total control over everything, i think it might have been a mistake.

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The Quartet recognizes it, Israel has recognized it, the Palestinians recognize it. It's part of the "roadmap" and the Geneva initiative and it's the official US policy. And the obligation to abide by it has been reaffirmed by all parties in 1978 at Camp David, 1993 at Oslo and in the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative.



true, and if you read carefully (especially in the road map) , the FIRST thing that needs to be done before any withdrawl is a complete and unconditional stop of all terroristic activity and gathering of the guns held by the numerous militias.
this never happened.

and another point. who is israel, the US, the quarter and the arab league is clear.
but who is the "palestinian" side? is it fatah who is willing to talk, still holds armed militias but can't control any of the other militias? Islamic Jihad who refuses to accept anything but the destruction of Israel or Hamas who is pretty much the same and also controls the official PA at the moment?
that was the problem from day one. one group signs treaties and the other continues to shoot at you (and Arafat admitted that he had kept the "violent" option handy on purpose, now it seemed to have backfired on his party)

O
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

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a few mistakes in your "facts"...



I didn't see too many "corrections" in your post. All I saw was angry rhetoric. I could cite inflammatory Israeli rantings as well and say that it represents Israeli policy but I was trying to move away from the extreme and present something reasonable for discussion.

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a few mistakes in your "facts"...



I didn't see too many "corrections" in your post. All I saw was angry rhetoric. I could cite inflammatory Israeli rantings as well and say that it represents Israeli policy but I was trying to move away from the extreme and present something reasonable for discussion.



Angry rhetoric? That's pretty funny shit. You're the one that is angry, while he is remarkable rational for someone that is not 5000 miles away from the violence. I was particularly interested in the section where he talked abuot the hope that concessions would lead to peace, and the realization that it looks to be a failure.

You've provided little facts yourself, and as a resident of Virginia, seem less credible than he. If you don't believe he made corrections, show how his failed.

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Angry rhetoric? That's pretty funny shit. You're the one that is angry, while he is remarkable rational for someone that is not 5000 miles away from the violence. I was particularly interested in the section where he talked abuot the hope that concessions would lead to peace, and the realization that it looks to be a failure.

You've provided little facts yourself, and as a resident of Virginia, seem less credible than he. If you don't believe he made corrections, show how his failed.



Did you read the long post I put up this morning? I thought it was pretty level headed and specific. I provided plenty of facts. The only things that contained any emotion was my lack of sympathy for people who chose to move in to, and get paid to live as illegal settlers in a land that is not theirs and which, according to our local source, Israel, and the entire international community, under the understanding that they're going to have to move out anyway. And yea, I was/am angry about my President's case of serious neglect in the matter. And I do like talking to Falxori because of his location but your assertion that somehow his point of view is irrefutable because of his proximity is severely flawed. Would you put more validity if I were to provide you with opinions from people living in Gaza? How about video?

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I think if IDRANKWHAT was sitting under the daily missles from Hamasistan he MIGHT have a little different perspective on the situation.



And I would think that if people would take the time to read more about the topic that they might actually find that things aren't as black and white as they think. It's the information age. There's no excuse for not knowing other than not wanting to.

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Major cop out there.


Some of us have read and studied it to death...

bottom line.. who really wants to live in peace???

The people making the concessions over and over.. and have a track record f living up to peace treaties they are a party to.. Jordan and Egypt found peace when they wanted it.

Perhaps in a few hundred years Hamas might be willing.

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Major cop out there.


Some of us have read and studied it to death...

bottom line.. who really wants to live in peace???

The people making the concessions over and over.. and have a track record f living up to peace treaties they are a party to.. Jordan and Egypt found peace when they wanted it.

Perhaps in a few hundred years Hamas might be willing.




I'm not copping out of anything. Do you know what the living conditions are like right now in Gaza and the West Bank? You haven't studied it to death if you aren't still studying. Don't take my word for it. Keep reading. Bottom line, they both want to live in peace.
And Hamas is willing. They've said it, just not on CNN. Admittedly today might not be the best day to ask them since Israel has been beating the shit out of them for the last couple of days.

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Do you know what the living conditions are like right now in Gaza and the West Bank?



Simple.... make peace.. so your people can get on with their lives rather than wallowing in a cult of death and sending off your children to another country to blow themselves up...HOPING to take innocent people with them.
USE the money raised around the world for your people and to make their lives better... NOT buying guns and explosives....and calling for the murder of Jews and the destruction of Israel.

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Do you know what the living conditions are like right now in Gaza and the West Bank?



Simple.... make peace.. so your people can get on with their lives
That's my point. Israel won't let them do it. Gaza is a prison camp. The good news though, is that today they're letting some more food come in through Egypt. Now 70% of Gaza's MINIMUM food levels may be met, as opposed to the 21% of a couple of weeks ago

rather than wallowing in a cult of death and sending off your children to another country to blow themselves up...HOPING to take innocent people with them.
Yea, they need to stop doing that. I've never claimed this was one sided.

USE the money raised around the world for your people and to make their lives better... NOT buying guns and explosives....and calling for the murder of Jews and the destruction of Israel.

That's hard to do when Israel controls everything that comes in and out, everything that's not smuggled of course. And, out of curiousity, would you condemn Israelis who called for the destruction of the Palestinians?

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That's hard to do when Israel controls everything that comes in and out, everything that's not smuggled of course. And, out of curiousity, would you condemn Israelis who called for the destruction of the Palestinians?





Then make peace.. then they would no longer be excluded from jobs in Isreal that many Palistinians held before the Intefada.... and the Palistinian use of homicide bombers within Isreal...Perhapsw if we had Mexicans coming across OUR border and blowing up shops.. malls.. busses... night clubs.. WE JUST MIGHT have some immigration reform and close our borders as the Israelis have done.

I am sure there are plenty of right wingers in Isreal that would support wiping out the Palestinians... because of all the attacks they have made and the way they have been treated by ALL of their "neighbors" for so long....its part of that eye for an eye thing that seems to work so well to blind so many in that part of the world.
By the way I hold them in the same way that I feel for so many other right wing causes here.. OR there.

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And I do like talking to Falxori because of his location but your assertion that somehow his point of view is irrefutable because of his proximity is severely flawed.



Irrefutable - of course not. But while your posts continue to talk about how bad Israel is and about all those poor Palestinians (quite one sided despite your protests otherwise) while he can see multiple viewpoints and address your claims with actual details, I tend to find his writing more believable.

and when you choose to attack his writing as angry propoganda devoid of fact, rather than showing how it was so, it was clear who has a leg to stand on.

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Then make peace..
You can't do it alone. And each side in the debate has a short list of little, pain in the ass demands that have to be met before they will agree to talk. It's frustrating and why we need a strong third party to shove them together.

then they would no longer be excluded from jobs in Isreal that many Palistinians held before the Intefada....
and I think you're still missing my point. They can't work in GAZA, much less in Israel. And if they do they don't get paid because money is being held back. Or they can't export any goods that they do produce. Israel controls nearly EVERY ASPECT of their existence in Gaza. It's literally a prison. Pretty much all they can do is breed, as evidenced by the population that is nearly half under the age of 15. When they're not doing that they're trying to get enough food for a meal a day. It's enough to make anyone want to shoot a rocket if you ask me. Then you get missiles, tanks and bulldozers in return and we're back where we started.

and the Palistinian use of homicide bombers within Isreal...Perhapsw if we had Mexicans coming across OUR border and blowing up shops.. malls.. busses... night clubs.. WE JUST MIGHT have some immigration reform and close our borders as the Israelis have done.

The martyrdom problem is something that the Palestinians need to control. But so is the heavy handed military tactics used by the Israelis. You fight with what you have. If the US gave the Palestinians tanks they would use those instead. I don't see a difference between suicide vests and tanks or warplanes. They both kill innocent people. You need to get all parties to quit shooting.

I am sure there are plenty of right wingers in Isreal that would support wiping out the Palestinians...
Some do, and some use religious texts to back up their desire to carpet bomb 1.4 million people, coming to a synagogue near you.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180527966693&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


because of all the attacks they have made and the way they have been treated by ALL of their "neighbors" for so long....its part of that eye for an eye thing that seems to work so well to blind so many in that part of the world.
This applies to both sides. And that's all I'm trying to point out.

By the way I hold them in the same way that I feel for so many other right wing causes here.. OR there.
Glad to hear that

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