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Study Confirms Gas Companies GOUGING

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Supporting them? If I want to go to work, I have no choice but to buy gas. I can't just say no i'm not going to buy gas until you lower your price.
I always look for the cheapest, but all the gas companies seem to raise and( rarely lower) their prices at the same time, same day. Usually right before the long weekend
And any news event slightly related to oil production is an invitation to raise the price again.
Everyone is pissed but without help from the government ( they have a big stake in this too, they get huge amounts of tax $ off the increased price.)
all we can do is pay the price >:(

Willy

growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional.

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Ah, but you DO have a choice, you are just unwilling to make the required sacrifice to do it. Back when we were a single car family, my dad would ride his bike from where we lived in titusville, fl, to kenennedy space center. Now, it's not that far, 12 or 13 miles one way. But it's more than these fatass couch potatoes could walk in a year because they've become sedentary.

You could walk, run, jog skip, bike, etc. You'd just have to leave earlier to get there, and take longer to get home! But now some people, probably in general, are too lazy to because it's not like the olden days where everybody's shoes were made out of bark, and ben franklin hadn't invented electricity or robots.

.jim
"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

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In this case it applies. I want to hear from the 'supply and demand' folks on this - after they read the study.



*yawn* -- here you go, I already posted on this: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2799310;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

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In this case it applies. I want to hear from the 'supply and demand' folks on this - after they read the study.



More sensationalism.
*yawn*

Supply/demand is old hat. Now it's Market Bearing.

Charge what the market will bear...good old capitalism at work. So what's your complaint? You're buying the gas at those prices aren't you? Oil companies are for-profit endeavors, aren't they? WTF?

Tell you what...I'll sell you my coffee cup for $1 million. Pay it and then go home and whine about getting ripped off.
:S:S:S


This highlights the problem.

If there is elasticity in the market and competition both from the refinery and at retail then you have no problem. We don't have that and that is an issue. Would you pay $10 for a coffee? What if EVERY coffee house charged $10 +/- 2c you couldn't make your own and you needed a cup to get to work in the morning every morning? Now all the coffee makers tell you that the coffee beans are tough to come by and there's only 5 places in the country that will grind the beans and they've shut 2 of them down for a year and they own the other 3 but yea they're only charging what the market will bear.

If someone else could open a refinery (or take one of the closed ones away from the monopolists who shut it down) and start trucking gas to independent stations inside a year I'd be happier. I think the missing link is what's happening with the refineries, but retail is pretty screwed up too with regional price rigging. Same gas sold for more to different stations for no reason other than they can get away with it due to lack of competition. Capitalism is good, but not unbridled capitalism, this has long been understood.

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I pay, since there is no viable alternative

Bicycle? The most effecient machine ever invented.[:/]


I would probably die in short order trying to ride my bike to work. It's a long, dangerous route for a bike. Also, I need to dress in business attire, and cannot show up for work sweaty and smelly. There are no showers or facilities for changing clothes either.

The mass transit system in my regios is non-existant, and for some reason, the major auto people CRUSHED all of the very successful electric cars they once leased, taking them off the market forever.

But I do hope gas prices keep going up so that alternatives get traction. That way, all of the oil investors can lose their shirt when the stock plummets.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

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>Supporting them? If I want to go to work, I have no choice but to buy gas.
>I can't just say no i'm not going to buy gas until you lower your price.

You can indeed. You can run your car on E85. Most modern cars will run on it even if they are not FFV's. You can get an electric bike/motorcycle. You can get a diesel and run it on biodiesel. There are plenty of used diesels available, and several companies are planning on selling new diesels in '08. With a little work you can even get them to run on straight vegetable oil, available behind most restaurants. You could even ride a bike.

It is, however, more inconvenient to do any of those things, which is the 'lever' the gas companies have over you.

> all we can do is pay the price.

Your choice.

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That would be nice but my work takes me across the country.
Average 1000km/week. Different job site every week.
Like I said I have no choice.>:(

Willy



The only time you have NO choice is when a gun is pointed at you. You have many choices in this issue however.

You've confused already committing to a choice with not having one in the first place.


First Class Citizen Twice Over

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Believe it or not, but people commuted long distances before there were cars. ;)

Often, people who complain about a lack of choice are usually the ones who don't like the other option. :P

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

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You can indeed. You can run your car on E85. Most modern cars will run on it even if they are not FFV's. You can get an electric bike/motorcycle. You can get a diesel and run it on biodiesel. There are plenty of used diesels available, and several companies are planning on selling new diesels in '08. With a little work you can even get them to run on straight vegetable oil, available behind most restaurants. You could even ride a bike.

It is, however, more inconvenient to do any of those things, which is the 'lever' the gas companies have over you.



deja vu.

Like I said last week, hardly a diesel option in California yet and the other options lack the infrastructure for more than a tiny minority to adopt.

but I bet the view is wonderful from the top of that high horse.

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>hardly a diesel option in California yet and the other options lack
>the infrastructure for more than a tiny minority to adopt.

We have E85 gas stations. Ebay Motors alone lists 29 diesel vehicles for sale within 100 miles of my house, from Jettas to Mercedes-Benzes to vans to pickups to RV's. Most houses here have both natural gas and electrical service. And most people here have legs.

>but I bet the view is wonderful from the top of that high horse.

Not as comforting as the view from the viewpoint of a determined, self-defined victim. Why, I know people who can give you dozens of reasons they can't do anything but buy lots of gas, why they can't stay in school, why their boss is a jerk who won't let them succeed, why the cops just hassle them all the time. Then there are other people who don't have the patience for such self-defeating propositions and just succeed.

But hey, if someone can cut enough people down, their own situation starts looking a lot better - and they don't feel like they have to fix their own problems any more. And in the end, isn't that what's really important?

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>hardly a diesel option in California yet and the other options lack
>the infrastructure for more than a tiny minority to adopt.

We have E85 gas stations. Ebay Motors alone lists 29 diesel vehicles for sale within 100 miles of my house, from Jettas to Mercedes-Benzes to vans to pickups to RV's. Most houses here have both natural gas and electrical service. And most people here have legs.



His point Bill is that there are no new diesel options in California, the rules are too strict. Not even Mercedes can develop their engines to meet all 50 states.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

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I told you so!;)

http://www.dailyheraldtribune.com/z_gouginggas131.lasso

The demands for action follows an analysis by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives that concludes the industry has artificially inflated prices since the temporary supply shortage stemming from Hurricane Katrina in the fall of 2005 showed consumers were willing to pay much higher prices for gas.

The study says ever since Katrina, Canadians and Americans have been paying much more at the pump than would be justified by the cost of crude oil, production and profit margins industry earned prior to the Louisiana hurricane.

The Study: http://policyalternatives.ca/documents/National_Office_Pubs/2007/Gas_Price_Gouge_2007.pdf



LOL This is some funny stuff. They claim:
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Canadians and Americans have been paying much more at the pump than would be justified by the cost of crude oil, production and profit margins industry earned prior to the Louisiana hurricane.



The study doesn't give a single example of gouging in the US. :S

It completely overlooks the impact of scarcity. Basic economic stuff. Basic supply and demand stuff. Why do so many people need a bogeyman to blame when circumstances aren't to their liking?

To expect refineries to run at full capacity and charge the same per-unit rate as they normally charge is like telling hourly employees they will be required to work 70 hours per week with no time-and-a-half for overtime.

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Searing Summer of Gasoline Shortages

By Matthew Simmons

http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1252

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The burning question is how much lower stocks can drop before shortages sweep our fragile gasoline supply system



article found at;
http://www.theoildrum.com/
"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
A. Sachs

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>The burning question is how much lower stocks can drop before shortages
>sweep our fragile gasoline supply system.

That all depends on what we do. If gas prices continue to climb, then people will simply use less and there will be no shortages. If we do something stupid, like price caps, expect massive shortages of the sort we saw in the 70's.

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We have E85 gas stations. Ebay Motors alone lists 29 diesel vehicles for sale within 100 miles of my house, from Jettas to Mercedes-Benzes to vans to pickups to RV's.



*29*!?

Was this supposed to be an impressive number? I'm not sure how far south in San Diego you are, but you're at least within 150 miles of 20some million people, all of whom drive, so 29 is pretty fucking abysmal.

so again, you're offering a solution that a scant few could adopt. The other 20 million people will have to make due with the status quo.

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>*29*!?

Yes. 29 on one day from one advertiser. The San Diego Union-Trib classifieds page lists about 45 diesel cars/trucks/vans for sale - again, that's just today. You can get one if you like, or use another option (like a bus, natural gas, E85, a bike etc etc.) Or you can bitch. Up to you.

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>*29*!?

Yes. 29 on one day from one advertiser. The San Diego Union-Trib classifieds page lists about 45 diesel cars/trucks/vans for sale - again, that's just today. You can get one if you like, or use another option (like a bus, natural gas, E85, a bike etc etc.) Or you can bitch. Up to you.



I've said several times I believe solutions will need to come from the state and feds. There are lots of penny ante solutions that can scale up to a handful of people - you've listed many, are part of the development of others. But solutions that can't scale even to 1% aren't really solutions yet.

I go 2-6 weeks between fillups, so this problem doesn't directly affect me, other than in the high grocery prices. I don't feel bad at all bitching about how useless your suggestions are at this point in time. I'd like to see them made useful. So far, I don't see that happening without effort or coercion by Sacramento and Washington.

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...If gas prices continue to climb, then people will simply use less...



gasoline consumption has continued to grow despite rising prices so what makes you think rising prices will curb growth let alone reduce consumption?

Obviously there is a price at which people will reduce consumption but I don't believe we are anywhere near that point.
"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
A. Sachs

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...If gas prices continue to climb, then people will simply use less...



gasoline consumption has continued to grow despite rising prices so what makes you think rising prices will curb growth let alone reduce consumption?

Obviously there is a price at which people will reduce consumption but I don't believe we are anywhere near that point.


My guess is that the price where people will change habits is over $7 a gallon, maybe $8-10. Our society lives on credit, so what do they care? Plus, I HAVE to get to freaking work - that's the only way to pay for my gasoline that I use to get to work....[:/]

I've been looking locally for a small scooter (80 -90 mpg) but so far, no luck. People who have them aren't selling these days. I may get one of the chinese ones on ebay for like $799.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

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maybe try one of these;

honda's new offer for new riders;

125cc w gear for something like 3300$ new.

http://www.mc.honda-eu.com/uk/en/mc/125cc/cbr125r/introduction/introduction.jsp



Thanks, but I just want a cheap scooter, not a motorcycle. I don't want to have to get an M license. And spending $3500 would sort of eat in to the savings in gas......

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

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