Re: [DrewEckhardt] Bryan Burke - SDAZ 270 Policy notes

[ORANGENBLUE 0]

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Notice I didn't say anything about "cut." During climb to altitude, the aircraft at Perris, Eloy, and other DZ's I've been to follow a pattern, and I'd think this is particularly important during busy days. Deviating from the pattern likely costs more in fuel (again, maybe I'm wrong in my thinking) and that may be a part of the decision.

An aircraft doesn't care how many turns it makes to get to a given altitude. The time that the engine is running is what determines fuel consumption, therefore if you stop the climb and it takes a few extra minutes for the low exiters to get out than it adds time and money. If the aircraft continues to climb while the low exiters get out it should not affect the total time to climb to altitude or fuel consumption.

[AFFI 0]

MY MY MY...

The temperature in this thread seems to be blistering...
Can't we all just get along? What is the big deal???


At SDSL they will put out H&Ps all day long. On a normal non-event jumping day I have never known them to refuse H&Ps. Does not seem to affect patterns and I usually only notice cuts for sudents working toward their "A" or a large group of H&Ps are getting out.

Speakng of non-licensed jumpers:
Acquisition of an "A"License has 2 H&Ps (According to the USPA SIM) as part of the progression - one from 5.5 and one from 3.5, does this mean that a DZ who does not offer H&Ps to the up-jumpers is not going to cater to those getting their requirements on the "A" card?


Another thought - someone mentioned fear the government sepping in and regulating us.
This year nearly 600,000 people are going to die from cancer, that along with an abundance of other problems - I rather doubt the gov't cares much about a couple dozen yahoos killing themselves skydiving each year...

If someone owns a business and does not want to offer a service, unless it affects someones civil rights it is their buisness right? Jeezzzz, this reminds me of the East Texas Rednecks actually picketing McDonalds a few years back to bring back the freakin McRib!


Calm down everyone! The freaking world is not going to end over a few dead sydivers and a few policy changes at a DZ... It happens...
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Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[billvon 2,384]

>I rather doubt the gov't cares much about a couple dozen yahoos
>killing themselves skydiving each year...

As others have pointed out, they don't. But they do care very much when those same yahoos start killing _other_ people.

[chachi 0]

i think you are over stating the issue. while it may not be economically viable in the SDA business model they do not have the lock on how to run a skydiving business. SDA has the unique ability to be able to decide what kind of business they want to cater to based on the sheer volume of peopole coming to the sun and planes. in their case, the high lift capacity to 13-14K is their bread and butter and comparing a hop 'n pop load for them to a full altitude load is how they are going to do it.

i work for a similiar business. we cater to high end customers withh $$ so when business comes around sometime i price it out of their reach so i don't have to worry about it.

the bottom line is that they don't really care about that 20% of business. hold on though, before we panic there are lots and lots of dz's that want that 20% of business. skydive centres that build ponds, that create separate swooping environments, and most all the dz's that love to keep their aircraft flying jumpers all day from sun up to sun down.

while SDA was a great skydiving centre there are far better places for a swooper to go and now i imagine more will just do that.

[rehmwa 2]

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DING DING DING!!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

what did he win? free tact lessons? mr brave anonymous award? 1st prize for petulance?

maybe a bag of 'wahhhhh'?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[marks2065 0]

i have seen students try to follow the lower chutes and if it happened to be an instuctor that doesn't lead by example i have seen the student get hurt - i mentioned this to the instructors and the dzo and got " if the student followed his training this wouldn't have happened". i have always felt that any instructor should lead by example so the student can follow which helps keep them safe and helps the student learn. students look up to and follow the ways of their instructors so if the instructor freeflies and swoops the student will probably do the same - if the instructors belly fly and do 90 pattern that is what the student will learn - remember we all can influence the students lets do it responsibly and get some good taining under their belts before they start doing stupid things - also canopy instruction, what canopy instruction, the students are cut loose as soon as the money stops - instructors move on to the next guy with money - 15 years ago we got info from the old guys for free (pay it forward learning) now there is very little of that going on because it has become pay it now. some drop zones don't even offer canopy classes - people talk about the state of our sport is in decline and they are right - it is declining at the rate of the economy becuase students can't afford much after aff, gear, and coach jumps. how about we offer canopy leasons instead of coach jumps, freefall skills may not be as good but canopy skills would improve and so would safety. the students money would definatly be better spent canopy classes than rw or freefly caoch jumps.

[yoink 321]

Just out of interest has anyone actually gone along and asked for a Hop n Pop at SDA since this release yet?

Lots of things aren't 'economically viable' but are still done anyway.

[yjumpinoz 0]

Those of us at Cessna DZ's would gladly exchange airplanes so you can do H&P's all day long in the 182 and we can take your Otters to altitude.

[Thanatos340 1]

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But they do care very much when those same yahoos start killing _other_ people.

And it happens directly in front of close to 1000 Wuffo Spectators. That is what happened at Dublin.

Everyone’s blood is boiling right now for one reason or another. everyone is talking but it seems no one is listening.
Anyone willing to come out and say that they Should be able to Swoop into Traffic??
I dont think so. So what is wrong with having a Rule that says "Don’t do that!".

It is not the end all, Be all Solution.. But it is a Start.

Other things to help the problem is better focus on Canopy Control and awareness at all levels in the sport. This is more than just a Swooper problem, It concerns all of us.
But step one is make it crystal clear that if you Swoop through Traffic (180 or 270), There will be repercussions. Many of us dont trust your Skills and/or Judgment as much as You do (You/Your not directed at anyone in particular but the hypothetical Canopy Pilot that thinks he can still Pull it off)

Each DZ should have their own Rules. Jumpers will decide if those rules are acceptable and let the DZO`s know with their wallets.

Your right to Swoop ends when it puts someone else Life in Danger.

...............

Years ago, It was fairly common for Canopy Pilot to try to catch cut-away mains. A Top Canopy Pilot was killed doing this. Now at my home DZ and many others around, there are hard fast rules in place that say "DONT Do That". We learned from tragedy. Hopefully we can do that again.

There are many things that we all have done in the past that we now know better.

[diablopilot 2]

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And it happens directly in front of close to 1000 Wuffo Spectators. That is what happened at Dublin.

So you're saying Dublin wasn't a boogie, but was a demo. Interesting.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ChrisL 2]

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DING DING DING!!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

what did he win? free tact lessons? mr brave anonymous award? 1st prize for petulance?

maybe a bag of 'wahhhhh'?

__

My mighty steed

[jacketsdb23 45]

How about the following layout I've attached. This is from the SIM, Section 4, Category C modified slightly for our discussions here.

Say we have one moderate sized landing area. Why not divide it down the middle with the no fly zone and give one side to the swoopers. If a swooper (for whatever reason) can't get themselves into "their" pattern on "their" side then high performance turns are not permitted (read anything over 90º). This makes for one 'area' only to do high performance turns. Everyone else can stay away if there is a designated area. Combine this with education to all jumpers on why the changes are being made from current DZ landing patterns. This would allow for HP turns even on 'normal' loads.

This is basically the set-up we have started at Byron. There was some confusion early but its getting better every week. Rotate the NO FLY zone along the wind line. Always splitting the area in two. Better yet would be to have two physically separated landing area's for the two types of landings we're discussing.

Maybe not the answer, but possibly a start?

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[ORANGENBLUE 0]

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Just out of interest has anyone actually gone along and asked for a Hop n Pop at SDA since this release yet?

Lots of things aren't 'economically viable' but are still done anyway.

I'll be there for a week at the end of April. i will be asking for a hop n pop of 2. I'll definatly let ya know how it goes.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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But step one is make it crystal clear that if you Swoop through Traffic (180 or 270),

You need to realize that swooping isn't doing a 180 or 270. Swooping is when someone induces speed for their landing (to swoop across the ground). When jumping a small canopy, all I need to do is lean in my harness without even pulling on a front riser on something like a 90 degree turn (just as Stu mentioned in his post a while back) and I'll be coming in faster than someone who made a bigger turn on a bigger canopy. Swooping is not the turn, it's inducing speed for your landing.

When I was learning to swoop (shit I'm still learning) on larger canopies, swooping in traffic wasn't as big of an issue since I wasn't generating the speed I can now that I'm on a small pocket rocket. But now that I'm flying the ultra-high performance swooping machines, swooping in traffic is scary. I'm on your guys side in that respect.

But take swooping away from the responsible swoopers and where does that leave us? I'm sorry but being a big-way belly flier doesn't interest me. I find big-ways to be just as scary as swooping in traffic. What's the common denominator here? Not swooping but people doing stupid things in traffic while under a perfectly functional canopy.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,384]

Not a bad idea, especially for LZ's that have two possible landing directions (like Perris and Eloy.) You could stripe the field pretty easily. You'd have to make it clear that the airspaces were separate as well.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Maybe not the answer, but possibly a start?

It may not work at all DZs (with smaller landing areas) but I agree that it's a workable start.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[peregrinerose 0]

The problem isn't swooping, exactly, but egos. Unfortunately, you can't have a separate landing area for jumpers who let cockiness, complacency, laziness and/or invincibility dictate their decisions under canopy as that isn't something that can be objectively measured.

Until every last one of us can admit that we are all individually part of the problem, nothing is going to change. Most of us are to some degree confident, type A individuals who like ego boosts. Because of that, it's hard to say 'no' to skydives that are beyond our abilities or high performance maneuvers that may not be appropriate for the situation. That gets us in trouble.

We are also in awe of those with more jumps than us. A lot of posts on here indicated that Danny had a history of weaving through traffic for his landings, starting his swoop low, and being overly confident in his abilities. How many people took him aside and talked to him about it, tried to address it? Maybe even grounded him for unsafe practices? Given his stature in the skydiving community, probably few to none. That silence contributed to his and Bob's death.

Separate swooping areas is probably a good thing. Talking about this in so many forums and threads is good. Bandying ideas is good. Figuring out a way to keep the strong personalities and egos and invincibility complexes from killing each other would be even better though.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[ORANGENBLUE 0]

This is very similar to how it's done @ skydive OR. the runway is the no fly zone. no more that 180 on main landing area, and whatevers clever pond side.

[marks2065 0]

i like changing the configuration with the winds - the dz that i jump at has a very small landing area and a small part of it is always a swoop lane which causes everyone to cross wind landings to avoid or go over the swoop lane depending on wind direction

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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which causes everyone to cross wind landings

Being able to land crosswind will only make people become better, more competent and more confident canopy pilots. That way if (or should I say when) they are ever faced with a downwind landing (especially on an off field LZ), they won't freak out and do something stupid.

Dedicated LZ on DZs should be one way (or 180 degree the other way depending on the wind) just as Eloy's north landing area is. Don't be afraid of crosswind landings people. They're not that big of a deal (and downwinders are even more fun when you know what you're doing).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Thanatos340 1]

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So you're saying Dublin wasn't a boogie, but was a demo

Not at all what I am saying.
But that Boogie brings out a shitload of spectators. FACT: a very Large Number of Wuffo Spectators (I have heard +/- 1000) witnessed the accident.

And I am not trying to argue, I really want to understand why some people are so opposed to having rules about when and where you should be allowed to do HP Landings?

Leaving it up to the judgment of the Canopy pilots clearly isn’t working. Maybe you have perfect judgment and would never make a Mistake, but that doesn’t mean the next guy wont.

I have never said Banning anything was a good idea. but I am saying there is a time and place for everything. The question here is "Is it really the Time and Place to be doing HP Landings into the main landing area when much slower less maneuverable canopies are trying to land there?"

If it is NOT, then we need to make that crystal clear in both rules and actions.
I am also saying that we need to address other aspects of this as well and focus on canopy control and awareness at ALL Levels as well.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Exactly. Owning guns isn't a crime either, but using them a certain way is. See the correlation?

Check statistics! If there is more handguns around, lot more is used for crime. See Bowling for Colombine.

Bad, bad example!

[brenthutch 383]

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Banning swooping in 'any' way is the same as banning guns. We don't need to ban guns, just teach people how to use them so accidents don't continue to happen.

It has nothing to do with guns. Really bad exmaple!

Swooping is not a crime, bad ass flying is.

It is exactly like guns.

"Guns (270s) don't kill people, people do"

(guns are legal in the U.S., you must be a European)

[jlmiracle 7]

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also canopy instruction, what canopy instruction, the students are cut loose as soon as the money stops - instructors move on to the next guy with money - 15 years ago we got info from the old guys for free

You keep mentioning canopy classes. I have managed to make it over 10 years in the sport without injuring myself or anyone else and I have never taken a canopy class.

I have nothing against canopy classes if one chooses to pursue swooping or doesn't quite "get it" after being "let go" to self supervise. If they really sux as a newbie under canopy they should have never been cleared to self supervise.

Believe it or not, some people and I know I am not alone, some of use have no desire to fly stupidly small canopies or do hook turns. I'm in it for the freefall. I know how to fly a pattern. The same pattern I was taught in my first jump course. And so far have managed to land safely. What's wrong with the canopy skills/pattern we are taught during our student training?

I don't know how many times I've heard from swoopers "I can't land my canopy without hooking it"? I stare at them in disbelief that they are that bad of a canopy pilot they can't land straight in safely. If the canopy requires a hook turn to land, there is something definately wrong with the canopy (or pilot), and should not jump or be jumped.

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how about we offer canopy leasons instead of coach jumps, freefall skills may not be as good but canopy skills would improve and so would safety. the students money would definatly be better spent canopy classes than rw or freefly caoch jumps.

So you think everyone wants to learn to swoop? Well, they don't. I can guarantee it 100%. Students can pay for whatever kinda coach they want in what ever discipline they choose to pursue. And if they choose RW, they can jump with me for free.


J

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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It is exactly like guns.

"Guns (270s) don't kill people, people do"

(guns are legal in the U.S., you must be a European)

Guns has nothing to do with 270 setups.

FYI you may have a handgun legally even in Europe if you comply certain rules.

I'd rather compare 270 setup with the aggressive driving pattern of some motobike owners.

You may drive your 1000cc speed bike like in the book or overtake like nuts and drive between the standing lane of cars.