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CornishChris

What makes someone do this?

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To me, this discussion actually seems to be going somewhere constructive.

Fistlly, given Americas history, culture and present situation, ANY attempt at or form of "Gun-Control" is an absolute non-starter. Such a move would inevitably backfire harming the very people it's supposed to protect... So in America's case, "Less-Guns" is not the answer to this.

Perhaps "More-Guns" really IS the answer? Just as Americans with universal voting are actively encouraged to exercise that right, so they should be actively encouraged to "Bear Arms" in the course of their normal, daily lives. That, along with proper gun instruction rather than the "guns-are-evil" nonsense that seems to be current school policy in the US... A Gun-Education which ASSUMES that the kid is going to carry a gun, rather than trying to dissuade them from doing so.

Just a thought...

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

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A Gun-Education which ASSUMES that the kid is going to carry a gun, rather than trying to dissuade them from doing so.



It would be an interesting social experiment. Take a couple of High Schools, some in rural seetins, some in urban settings and make a gun a required "safety tool", to be carried at all times when on school property. Naturally educate them on how to safely carry and discharge their "safety tool".

I wonder what would happen.

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A Gun-Education which ASSUMES that the kid is going to carry a gun, rather than trying to dissuade them from doing so.



It would be an interesting social experiment. Take a couple of High Schools, some in rural seetins, some in urban settings and make a gun a required "safety tool", to be carried at all times when on school property. Naturally educate them on how to safely carry and discharge their "safety tool".

I wonder what would happen.



There is no reason to arm everyone (then you would be arming all the potential psychos).
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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A Gun-Education which ASSUMES that the kid is going to carry a gun, rather than trying to dissuade them from doing so.



It would be an interesting social experiment...



Perhaps I should have been more specific -- A Gun-Education which assumes that the kid is going to carry a gun as an adult! Many will, so they should be prepared for this rather than discouraged and ill informed.

As for arming the psychos, look on it as "levelling the playing field" IF you like... "A UNIVERSALLY armed society tends to be a polite society."

It may seem a strange solution, but perhaps the one to fit American Society most effectively.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

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"There is a gun problem, and we simply disagree on the remedy. The solution you are advocating has been proven time and again to fail. Those of us who favor gun rights believe that a solution is to put guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. The bad will always be able to get guns. Had on teacher been able to timely get to a gun, how many lives would have been saved at Columbine?", Lawrocket, this forum, July 30 2004.

Sorry, Lawrocket, you are a "fringe element type".



If am ever to be persecuted for my beliefs, I am, at least, heartened to know that I have provided more than enough evidence to convict.:)


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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Most of these guys have mental problems to begin with. Their parents don't pay any attention to them. They're outcasts at school. Bullies pick on them and nobody cares. They're on prescription drugs to control their moods. And so on... We've seen such a "profile" over and over again in these teenage shooting sprees.

Maybe we should quit medicating them into zombies. Maybe parents should spend productive time with their kids. Maybe school administrators should crack down on bullies. Blah blah blah.

Human nature hasn't changed, and all of these problems also existed 25 years ago - but none of those kids went off shooting people. So what's changed since? Our culture. Fatherless families, violence-filled video games and movies, the prescription drug culture where there's a pill to solve every problem.

Bring back "Leave it to Beaver" and "Father Knows Best" families, with caring parents and communities, natural play activities, and school administrators who aren't handcuffed by policies, and we can solve this problem.

I said pretty much the same thing in two lines in my post.

As long as we have govt. trying to enact a nanny state,"It takes a village" we are going to have these problems.

I would love to be the fly on the wall in that household.

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What stops mass killers armed with guns?
Good guys armed with guns.

.



The US has, apparently, more good guys armed with guns than anywhere else in the western world. Shouldn't it then have a lower homicide rate than those other countries, according to your impeccable logic (it doesn't)? Shouldn't "NO CARRY" states have a higher homicide rate than the US average according to your impeccable logic (they don't - source FBI UCR).
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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The US has, apparently, more good guys armed with guns than anywhere else in the western world.



Apparently! The US has more good guys who own guns...

But what is the incidence of carry? I believe that certainly in urban areas, carry is confined to the relatively small proportion of CCW Permit Holders who decide to carry on any given occasion.

Just suppose for a moment that the proportion of Americans carrying guns actually tracked the number of Americans who voted in the last presidential elections. Both are universal (adult) rights in American law.

In that case, one wonders if this incident would ever have occurred... Or would it have been so common that it wouldn't have made the news.

In effect, is COMMON-Carry the answer to these periodic incidents which seem far more common in America where guns are simultaneously revered and despised?.. But commonly owned.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

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Most of these guys have mental problems to begin with. Their parents don't pay any attention to them. They're outcasts at school. Bullies pick on them and nobody cares. They're on prescription drugs to control their moods. And so on... We've seen such a "profile" over and over again in these teenage shooting sprees.

Maybe we should quit medicating them into zombies. Maybe parents should spend productive time with their kids. Maybe school administrators should crack down on bullies. Blah blah blah.

Human nature hasn't changed, and all of these problems also existed 25 years ago - but none of those kids went off shooting people. So what's changed since? Our culture. Fatherless families, violence-filled video games and movies, the prescription drug culture where there's a pill to solve every problem.

Bring back "Leave it to Beaver" and "Father Knows Best" families, with caring parents and communities, natural play activities, and school administrators who aren't handcuffed by policies, and we can solve this problem.

I said pretty much the same thing in two lines in my post.

As long as we have govt. trying to enact a nanny state,"It takes a village" we are going to have these problems.

I would love to be the fly on the wall in that household.



What makes you think other countries don't have a similar incidence of totally dysfunctional families?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I believe it might be more of a culture thing.



Ding ding ding! Darius wins the prize for getting it right.

Most of these guys have mental problems to begin with.



I don't think this is entirely correct, unless you feel that US culture generates more mentally unstable individuals than other western nations. If it were simply a case of mentally unstable people carrying out these atrocities then there would probably be a more direct correlation across nations between easy access to guns and killing sprees.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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No one has mentioned yet that the kid that did the shooting isn't from the US or Utah. He's an 18 y/o Bosnian refugee that barely speaks English. His family lives in SLC, also refugees. The Bosnian community just held a press conference, decrying the violence.

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The local coverage is overwhelming, they've now started showing the bodies, and even interviewing children >:( who were there with the kids. The local mental health service is running ads for people that might be scared or knew someone shot. SLC is a big city but a tiny place. Several mall stores in other malls stayed closed for the first half of the day.
No motive has yet been mentioned, but the major stations here are breaking in almost every hour with some new detail.
It was pretty surprising to hear that the shooter had dropped out of high school a couple years ago, and that he had four skirmishes with the law prior to dropping out.
It'll spark the concealed weapons debate across the nation, that's for certain. Had it not been for the off-duty cop from a neighboring city having dinner at the mall, more people would have likely died. He shot the gunman several times in a gun fight that ended when SLC police made it to the building.

There is some speculation on the local news that the kid's Muslim background prompted him to be a jihaadist. His method of murder, haircut, etc would tend to bely that, I think.

On the sensational side, one of the number one questions asked by reporters today was "How soon til the mall reopens?" (It's mostly a mall for wealthy folk)
The answer? By as early as 9:00 a.m. tomorrow. Some businesses were open at 3:00 p.m. today.:S

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No one has mentioned yet that the kid that did the shooting isn't from the US or Utah. He's an 18 y/o Bosnian refugee that barely speaks English. His family lives in SLC, also refugees. The Bosnian community just held a press conference, decrying the violence.



And apparently Muslim. Whether or not that had anything to do with it is not being reported.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

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I believe it might be more of a culture thing.



Ding ding ding! Darius wins the prize for getting it right.
Most of these guys have mental problems to begin with.



I don't think this is entirely correct, unless you feel that US culture generates more mentally unstable individuals than other western nations...



For one thing, using the often compared U.S. and U.K., the U.S. has five times more population than the U.K. Thus, even if both countries have mental deviants at the same rate per capita, then the U.S. will still have five times more incidents. So beware of such comparisons using the actual number of incidents.

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Doesn't make them murderers...otherwise Europe would have had mass killings by individuals harmed in WWII.

Yeah what a shame that happened, but no excuse in any way for these actions.

I am not saying that is your opinion nor directing this at you.



Agreed.

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For one thing, using the often compared U.S. and U.K., the U.S. has five times more population than the U.K. Thus, even if both countries have mental deviants at the same rate per capita, then the U.S. will still have five times more incidents. So beware of such comparisons using the actual number of incidents.



On a purely statistical basis, I'd expect the US to have significantly more than 5 times the number of incidents compared to the UK. With 5 times the population, some 25 times the "newsworthy" incidents would be more expected.

However, while such incidents in the UK tend to centre on blunt of bladed instruments, US incidents tend to centre on the more efficient "gun" with the attendant increased loss of life.

It really comes down to what's easily available and the resultant effectiveness of use.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17156121/
No wonder the kid had mental problems. That would be enough to mess up anyone for life.



So he survived a massacre by Serbs, was rescued by the United Nations, and was given a new home in America. And for this, he decides to kill a bunch of Americans.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

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So he survived a massacre by Serbs, was rescued by the United Nations, and was given a new home in America. And for this, he decides to kill a bunch of Americans.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.



John,
This evening at a dinner, our waitress heard us talking about the murders that occurred across the street from where we were eating.
The waitress jumped into the conversation with "Do you think you could survive what he's survived and not be scarred for life by it?"
I was astounded that a person could take the position at any point, that this kid was justified in his action. I wanna know why his probation officer didn't have a clue about this kid after he'd been arrested XXX times. I wanna know why the state of Utah issued an edict to all employees to not search out this kid's family files with Social Services, or they'd be terminated immediately. Someone, somewhere, should have had at least the smallest clue this kid was whacked. I understand no one could have seen *this* coming, but somewhere along the way of being kicked out of 3 high schools, several violence-related arrests, whatever Social Services were involved, and probation department involvement...why didn't someone, somewhere figure out that this kid was a menace in some form or another?

He killed 5 people in 2 minutes. Thankfully there was the off-duty police officer with a weapon, or who knows how many more would have died in the 4 minutes it took SLC police to fully respond.

It's not a Muslim-American, Bosnian-American, or American anything event. It's a human to human event.

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17156121/
No wonder the kid had mental problems. That would be enough to mess up anyone for life.



So he survived a massacre by Serbs, was rescued by the United Nations, and was given a new home in America. And for this, he decides to kill a bunch of Americans.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.



I'm not condoning what he did. :|
Nor did I see anywhere that he was specifically targeting Americans.

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I believe it might be more of a culture thing.



Ding ding ding! Darius wins the prize for getting it right.
Most of these guys have mental problems to begin with.



I don't think this is entirely correct, unless you feel that US culture generates more mentally unstable individuals than other western nations...



For one thing, using the often compared U.S. and U.K., the U.S. has five times more population than the U.K. Thus, even if both countries have mental deviants at the same rate per capita, then the U.S. will still have five times more incidents. So beware of such comparisons using the actual number of incidents.



I had the rate of incidence per capita in mind when I posted.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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