ExAFO 0
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billvon 2,400
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>Asshat, blame the FAC, not the pilot.
Your one warning.
Your one warning.
ExAFO 0
Sorry, edited.
Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.
QuoteAnd unless you wore a Uniform, your position loses a lot of credibility...
no it doesn't
ExAFO 0
QuoteQuoteAnd unless you wore a Uniform, your position loses a lot of credibility...
no it doesn't
What exactly do you know of CAS or coordination w/ a FAC?
Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.
why will my knowledge of those make any diference to the fact you can hear those arseholes saying they can see orange markings and STILL attacking them when they were not sure if they were friendly or not...?
how many more british troops have to run the gauntlet of American fire before the world sees american troops for what they are?
while we're on the subject, how many wars have American troops won on their own? American troops got their arses kicked in korea, they got them serverly kicked in Vietnam, they made fools of themselves at the bay of pigs... the less said about Somalia the better, need i go on about the quality of American troops? it seems america needs its allies, yet can't seem to stop themselves from killing them.... guess it's just the price we must pay isn't it![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]")
how many more british troops have to run the gauntlet of American fire before the world sees american troops for what they are?
while we're on the subject, how many wars have American troops won on their own? American troops got their arses kicked in korea, they got them serverly kicked in Vietnam, they made fools of themselves at the bay of pigs... the less said about Somalia the better, need i go on about the quality of American troops? it seems america needs its allies, yet can't seem to stop themselves from killing them.... guess it's just the price we must pay isn't it
jakee 1,254
QuoteIt looks bad but since I have never been in combat I prefer to wait and hear the findings of an inquiry conducted by those who have experience before I make any judgements.
As far as I understand it the inquiry has been conducted, the results are being kept secret.
The USAF always denied that video even exsted - d'ya think they are going to release details of an internal inquiry?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
Richards 0
QuoteAs far as I understand it the inquiry has been conducted, the results are being kept secret.
The USAF always denied that video even exsted - d'ya think they are going to release details of an internal inquiry?
I never said it didn't look bad. I always take the position that since I have never been in a combat situation I try to refrain from jumping to conclusions until there is at least a little more detail. In this case the cat is out of the bag (with the video) so the details of the inquiry may become avaiable to the public as a result.
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.
Quotehow many more british troops have to run the gauntlet of American fire before the world sees american troops for what they are?
Plenty, but not as many as American troops.
What is interesting in this debate is the lack of thought and reasoning involved in so many posts on both sides.
Quoteneed i go on about the quality of American troops? it seems america needs its allies, yet can't seem to stop themselves from killing them.... guess it's just the price we must pay isn't it
This is jumping to conclusions. Ironically, the same thing that happened prior to engaging the targets here. Some saw the warnings, but moved ahead.
War is chaos. War is immoral. Shit happens. Bad shit happens. Fratricide happens. Civilians die. People die. Shit gets blown up.
Take a look at this post. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2330230#2330230 New things bring new problems. This shows problems of a different kind - lack of communication.
Quotehow many wars have American troops won on their own
None. Even the French helped us defeat the British a couple of times. Likewise, the Prussians helped the British defeat France.
We may ask the question as well, "How many Americans have died in the last century or so in order to ensure that Britain survived?" Americans are not perfect - nobody is. Mistakes are made and people die.
If that was my convoy that got hit by friendlies, I would ask the question of why the friendlies did not know we were there? Two chains of command work two ways. Information went up the British Chain and was to go down the American Chain, right? Did Britain confirm with air support that air support knew they were there? Obviously not.
There was plenty more that the Americans could have done to prevent this. There was probably plenty more the British could have done to prevent this. In matters of war, the blame should go around to everybody involved.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
If that was my convoy that got hit by friendlies, I would ask the question of why the friendlies did not know we were there? Two chains of command work two ways. Information went up the British Chain and was to go down the American Chain, right? Did Britain confirm with air support that air support knew they were there? Obviously not.
>Utterly wrong. They HCR lads did know American forces were operating in the area. This was the beginning of the ground offensive launched from the Kuwait/Iraq border. Certain measures had been put in place to prevent blue on blues but of course, they don't always work do they?
Most Brit's have a bit of a bee in their bonnet regarding the frequency of American blue on blue contacts. To be honest my Grandad - from his experiences in WW11 - hated American forces. Sorry, but considering what he went through and how many times they nearly killed him through poor judgement and professionalism, I can fully understand his point of view.
At the end of the day, American forces are famous internationally for having gung-ho itchy trigger fingers. This reputation didn't come round accidently; despite the amount of professionalism and courage shown in other areas.
Look around the internet; if your 'lucky' you may come across a video taken through the FLIR sight of 2 American Apaches destroying two American M-2 Bradleys in GW 1.
Upon the vehicles destruction the aircraft commander comments; 'Well, I sure hope they weren't ours because their definently dead.'
......................right. Well fucking guess what mate?
Further to the insanity of firing on unidentified vehicles on the presumption they were enemy, it's necessary to understand the M-2's were stationary, not firing and posing no imediate threat to anybody.
And funnily enough - the apache commander reverted to no longer prefixing his callsign with 'Gunslinger.' Gung-ho?
I can speak also for myself having nearly been killed several times on blue on blue incidents. Bit weird, but they always involved poor judgement and professionalism from a particular nation.
I also spoke to one of the lads from the HCR who was involved in this particular incident with the A-10's a couple of weeks after, but I have no intention of upsetting myself anymore by repeating what he had to say.
I'm fucking sick of hearing people making excuses for such incidents.
Numerous things went wrong throughout the military structure that day, but responsibilty ends with the man pulling the trigger.
If you can't properly identify the fucking target don't shoot.
And get some fucking time on the vehicle recognititon trainers. Dude.
'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'
>Utterly wrong. They HCR lads did know American forces were operating in the area. This was the beginning of the ground offensive launched from the Kuwait/Iraq border. Certain measures had been put in place to prevent blue on blues but of course, they don't always work do they?
Most Brit's have a bit of a bee in their bonnet regarding the frequency of American blue on blue contacts. To be honest my Grandad - from his experiences in WW11 - hated American forces. Sorry, but considering what he went through and how many times they nearly killed him through poor judgement and professionalism, I can fully understand his point of view.
At the end of the day, American forces are famous internationally for having gung-ho itchy trigger fingers. This reputation didn't come round accidently; despite the amount of professionalism and courage shown in other areas.
Look around the internet; if your 'lucky' you may come across a video taken through the FLIR sight of 2 American Apaches destroying two American M-2 Bradleys in GW 1.
Upon the vehicles destruction the aircraft commander comments; 'Well, I sure hope they weren't ours because their definently dead.'
......................right. Well fucking guess what mate?
Further to the insanity of firing on unidentified vehicles on the presumption they were enemy, it's necessary to understand the M-2's were stationary, not firing and posing no imediate threat to anybody.
And funnily enough - the apache commander reverted to no longer prefixing his callsign with 'Gunslinger.' Gung-ho?
I can speak also for myself having nearly been killed several times on blue on blue incidents. Bit weird, but they always involved poor judgement and professionalism from a particular nation.
I also spoke to one of the lads from the HCR who was involved in this particular incident with the A-10's a couple of weeks after, but I have no intention of upsetting myself anymore by repeating what he had to say.
I'm fucking sick of hearing people making excuses for such incidents.
Numerous things went wrong throughout the military structure that day, but responsibilty ends with the man pulling the trigger.
If you can't properly identify the fucking target don't shoot.
And get some fucking time on the vehicle recognititon trainers. Dude.
'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'
Quote
while we're on the subject, how many wars have American troops won on their own? American troops got their arses kicked in korea, they got them serverly kicked in Vietnam, they made fools of themselves at the bay of pigs... the less said about Somalia the better, need i go on about the quality of American troops? it seems america needs its allies, yet can't seem to stop themselves from killing them.... guess it's just the price we must pay isn't it
Well, at least the US still has a Navy...
We are all engines of karma
dorbie 0
QuoteQuotewell done to those fuck-head pilots
yet another example of how the allies have more to fear from the yanks than the eye-rackies
i hope those pilots get hung, drawn and quarteredbut i suppose there will be lots of people jumping to their defence as usual
i wonder how much speed they had taken to keep awake?
Blame the FAC, not the pilot. And unless you wore a Uniform, your position loses a lot of credibility...
Did the forward air controller reach over the radio and make the pilot suddenly color blind? There's a reason these guys were doing straffing runs, that reason was FF casualties in Gulf War I over an almost identical incident with different weapons. These guys were using tactics specifically to allow them to identify friendly units and not attack them. Instead they visually identified friendly unit markers and attacked anyway. It's unbelievable, I wonder what you have to do in a chain of command to stop this kind of abject fucking stupidity.
When you excuse the indefensible you have NO CREDIBILITY in or out of uniform.
My take on it from an article. >QuoteQuotewell done to those fuck-head pilots
yet another example of how the allies have more to fear from the yanks than the eye-rackies
i hope those pilots get hung, drawn and quartered
i wonder how much speed they had taken to keep awake?
Blame the FAC, not the pilot. And unless you wore a Uniform, your position loses a lot of credibility...
In ERROR FOUR POPOV36 decides to attack, saying he is “rolling in” — without permission from the Forward Air Controller. POPOV35 asks for artillery to fire a marker round into the target area to clear up confusion.
But ERROR FIVE came when POPOV36 attacked without waiting for it. In ERROR SIX POPOV36 strafes the column for a second time but still doubts its identity.------------------------------------------------------Sounds to me like somebody had a itchy trigger finger and jumped the gun. Sad
I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.
It wasn't the pilots fault....period.
Now the observers on the ground that called this in should have to answer.
Additionally, the terrorist that are being fought have knowledge of coalition tactics.
Gotta luv the armchair quarterbacking............
Prayers to the Brits that were killed/injured.
Now the observers on the ground that called this in should have to answer.
Additionally, the terrorist that are being fought have knowledge of coalition tactics.
Gotta luv the armchair quarterbacking............
Prayers to the Brits that were killed/injured.
QuoteIt wasn't the pilots fault....period.
It sure appeared to be mostly the pilots fault. Who else had eyes on the targets? Who made the decision to fire on unidentified targets? Who pulled the trigger?
QuoteNow the observers on the ground that called this in should have to answer.
I didn't hear anyone order the pilot to fire. It appeared to me that the pilots picked out the targets and the FAC mistakenly reported no friendlies in that area. You only need to listen to the end of the tape to hear the pilots admit they were fucked for firing on the orange panels.
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
misaltas 0
>the allies have more to fear from the yanks than the eye-rackies
More to fear? Really?
>Bristish troops seem to manage not to kill allied troops,
Never?
>why is it only the yanks who seem to repeatedly kill friendly soldiers?
Only?
>American troops got their arses kicked in korea,
They did?
>they got them serverly kicked in Vietnam,
Politically yes, militarily not even close.
>they made fools of themselves at the bay of pigs...
Another political loss. I thought you were criticizing the american military.
>the less said about Somalia the better
One mission absorbs casualties and the entire operation is a failure? Again a political retreat due to lack of spine by the administration who directed it, certainly not a military loss. What's your armchair view on what constitutes a military victory, zero casualties? Please...
>it seems america needs its allies, yet can't seem to stop themselves from killing them
Can't stop themselves?
>>And unless you wore a Uniform,
>>your position loses a lot of credibility...
>no it doesn't
Yes it does. When someone only uses hyperbole to make their case, their argument is most probably weak. I might suggest you get your history lessons from somewhere other than your local cinema.
More to fear? Really?
>Bristish troops seem to manage not to kill allied troops,
Never?
>why is it only the yanks who seem to repeatedly kill friendly soldiers?
Only?
>American troops got their arses kicked in korea,
They did?
>they got them serverly kicked in Vietnam,
Politically yes, militarily not even close.
>they made fools of themselves at the bay of pigs...
Another political loss. I thought you were criticizing the american military.
>the less said about Somalia the better
One mission absorbs casualties and the entire operation is a failure? Again a political retreat due to lack of spine by the administration who directed it, certainly not a military loss. What's your armchair view on what constitutes a military victory, zero casualties? Please...
>it seems america needs its allies, yet can't seem to stop themselves from killing them
Can't stop themselves?
>>And unless you wore a Uniform,
>>your position loses a lot of credibility...
>no it doesn't
Yes it does. When someone only uses hyperbole to make their case, their argument is most probably weak. I might suggest you get your history lessons from somewhere other than your local cinema.
Ohne Liebe sind wir nichts
Quote>the allies have more to fear from the yanks than the eye-rackies
More to fear? Really?
>Bristish troops seem to manage not to kill allied troops,
Never?
>why is it only the yanks who seem to repeatedly kill friendly soldiers?
Only?
>American troops got their arses kicked in korea,
They did?
Care to expand on those answers? Im not being an arse here, but i want to see examples, lots of em.
1338
People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.
Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.
People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.
Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.
misaltas 0
QuoteCare to expand on those answers? Im not being an arse here, but i want to see examples, lots of em.
Those were questions, not answers. Interesting response of yours, since wanting to see 'examples lots of em' was kinda what I was looking for.
Ohne Liebe sind wir nichts
So you answered a question with a question? OK. Back on track.
The main point is blue on blue, name the last American to be killed by a Brit in battle. We have an example here of 1 dead Brit and one injured at the hands of the Americans.
The main point is blue on blue, name the last American to be killed by a Brit in battle. We have an example here of 1 dead Brit and one injured at the hands of the Americans.
1338
People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.
Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.
People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.
Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.
QuotePrayers to the Brits that were killed
Doesn't much help you when you're dead.
Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."
SkyChimp 0
Quotemy heart bleeds for them (not as much as it bleeds for our troops who are on the receiving end YET AGAIN of American dick-head HOOAAA brain dead gung-ho troops though)
Bristish troops seem to manage not to kill allied troops, why is it only the yanks who seem to repeatedly kill friendly soldiers?
I would like to know on how you have confirmed facts that England, and other countries never accidently kill each other due to friendly fire, Just America? Your substance thus far displayed in this thread siimply shows that you have a burning hate towards America, that's it!
Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?!
SkyChimp 0
QuoteIf you listen understanding that they're referring to multiple locations you can see the requests w.r.t locations are horribly confused. The controller says things like "Confirm that is 800m North", and even that was relative to artilery fire, but they made several requests.
The friendly forces in this incident had a large orange panel on them to identify them as such. The pilots saw this, then asked for confirmation that there are no friendlies in the area. They were not supposed to attack anything they saw friendly identification markers on, period. The forward controller is not fucking omnipotent.
That orange panel is a last ditch IFF to stop blue on blue when all else fails. After seeing orange panels and calling it an orange panel in the video one of them starts to refer to it as orange rockets. Anything fucking orange should have set alarm bells off.
NOW THAT'S A QUALITY POST!!!!
Dorbie sums it up completely.
I served in Allied Force in Kosovo in 1999 and war is very foggy but there are basics that are drilled into your head to keep safety paramount. It's like with skydiving guys, no matter what... YOU PULL! Well, in sweeper missions in their case, no matter what... ORANGE! That was their basics in safety for the mission and they clearly stated numerous times the tops of the vehicles were orange.
Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?!
Whoa there. You think just because you hear a "excerpt" of a HUD tape that they " did not" receive their order from the ground? I have to disagree.
Everyone heard about...what...20 seconds of HUD tape......
Everyone heard about...what...20 seconds of HUD tape......
QuoteQuotePrayers to the Brits that were killed
Doesn't much help you when you're dead.
Of course it does.
Blame the FAC, not the pilot. And unless you wore a Uniform, your position loses a lot of credibility...
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