Self-induced knot on toggles

[ASOT_QC 0]

I wanted to share with you guys something that happened to me two days ago on a regular jump. I dumped the extractor at 3000' as usual, and came in control at about 2200'. When I collapsed my slider and pull it behind my neck, my right toggle came loose and I started to turn. To recover, I simply pulled on the left toggle, undoing the brakes, and released the damn toggle.

MY MISTAKE!

Yet, the turn had stopped, but I unfortunately had induced a knot on the left brake line, as my toggle did a loop between the brake line and the rear riser. I was at 1500' when I realized I would not have any flare at all. So I braked the canopy at about 60-75%, prayed for a soft landing and started to maneuver into a landing pattern.

That day, we had a No-wind approach so there were no turbulence on the ground. I kept it braked until I touched the ground, very slowly, with only a 2-3 steps to stop the landing.

It all went smooth, but could have been much more messy.

Anyway, my point is :

JUST DON'T EVER LET GO OF THE TOGGLES ONCE YOU UNDO YOUR BRAKES!

Screenshots will come later

[unkulunkulu 0]

Hey, congrats on walking away from this. Was it on your Hornet 150 at 1.1 as in your user profile?

[mcstain 0]

ASOT_QC

I was at 1500' when I realized I would not have any flare at all. So I braked the canopy at about 60-75%, prayed for a soft landing and started to maneuver into a landing pattern.

What is your hard deck?

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That day, we had a No-wind approach so there were no turbulence on the ground. I kept it braked until I touched the ground, very slowly, with only a 2-3 steps to stop the landing.

Did you consider using your rear risers for landing? Do you know where the stall point is on your rear risers?

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Anyway, my point is :

JUST DON'T EVER LET GO OF THE TOGGLES ONCE YOU UNDO YOUR BRAKES!

I think that there are some other lessons to be learned from this incident, apart from holding onto your toggles. Did you speak to an instructor or experienced jumper about the incident?

[pchapman 261]

ASOT_QC

JUST DON'T EVER LET GO OF THE TOGGLES ONCE YOU UNDO YOUR BRAKES!

I wouldn't go that far. That's just something for first jump students. But one does want to be careful with toggles.

If one ever pulls down a toggle and then lets it go, allowing it to "snap" upwards, it can flip around its own brake line.

The issue doesn't get mentioned much, so a reminder seems appropriate.

I've made that mistake a couple times when being too casual with the brakes on a crossbraced canopy. Once I was getting a bit low (25 seconds to landing) with no time to fix it, so chose to land it on one toggle and one riser. No problem in the end but not a smart situation to be in.

Using both rears is a more commonly taught method though -- you'll want to get briefed more on that. You might even have had time to fix your problem, but one does have to choose one's priorities.

As for not letting go, there are many reasons to let go of toggles to adjust gear, that one doesn't necessarily want to do only before initially releasing toggles. This includes a common task on small canopies of opening one's chest strap wide AFTER confirming that there is no problem with the brakes and canopy controllability.

[sundevil777 93]

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I simply pulled on the left toggle, undoing the brakes, and released the damn toggle.

MY MISTAKE!

Yet, the turn had stopped, but I unfortunately had induced a knot on the left brake line

From the above statement it sounds possible that the excess brake line was not stowed and you grabbed the toggle through the loop of the excess.

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JUST DON'T EVER LET GO OF THE TOGGLES ONCE YOU UNDO YOUR BRAKES!

I don't understand this statement. It is not clear to me that the knot happened because you released the toggle - it could have happened as you released your brakes - pulling the toggle through the loop of the excess. Please clarify.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[stayhigh 2]

You can always grab the lines above the knot and just fly it normal.

and at 1500 ft you have time to; let go of the other toggle very carefully so that doesn't knot up, and fix the knotted side.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[ASOT_QC 0]

yes it was

[ASOT_QC 0]

Indeed there are much more to learn, and I had it debriefed.

The knot could have been undone for sure. It's just a matter of preparation. Good thing it was caught on camera.

I could have used my rears. Probably would have been the smartest choice.

thanks for your questions, it helps thinking it through.

[pchapman 261]

stayhigh

You can always grab the lines above the knot and just fly it normal.

Point made although that's rather too simplified for a newbie.

Since the line above the knot is anchored the guide ring end, simply pulling down with open fingers will add significant force to pulling the line, as it has to scrape over ones gloves or fingers in a 180 bend as one brings it down below the guide ring.

There's less friction if one pulls back and outward, some direction other than the usual straight down.

If there's a lot of friction or the line doesn't slide well, one may end up moving the rear riser down too, in which case one will have some interesting mix of brake and riser application.

Perhaps you mean that using the brake line above the guide ring isn't that big a deal when making small inputs when flying around up high. But one can't just "fly like normal" when it comes to flaring and landing!

Although using the brake line above the guide ring is something to play with, there is some complexity and it isn't taught like rear risering.

(I did once land using the brake line above the guide ring, when I lost a toggle just before the flare on a Cobalt 75 with heavy winter gloves on. Worked for me, especially on that canopy that uses a relatively short toggle stroke.)

[stayhigh 2]

I guess the answer was too advanced move for the beginner??

Just like getting out of flip thru under canopy by doing front flip or back flip.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[dpreguy 14]

"Extractor?" C'mon. Be precise. No has ever heard of that term. Did you just make that term up?

I presume you mean you pitched your hand-deployed pilot chute at 3000 ft.

[indyz 1]

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"Extractor?" C'mon. Be precise. No has ever heard of that term. Did you just make that term up?

"Extracteur" is one way to say pilot chute in French, and the poster is from Quebec.

[topdocker 0]

ASOT_QC

JUST DON'T EVER LET GO OF THE TOGGLES ONCE YOU UNDO YOUR BRAKES!

A good candidate for the worst internet skydiving advice ever.

Don't drop your toggles when you are trying to use them. Don't drop your toggles when they are pulled down, they could snap up and around your slider, riser, or GoPro.


top

Jump more, post less!

[ASOT_QC 0]

by all means... thanks for the comment, I really appreciate your help. I'm convinced everyone will understand me better with your intervention. I shall post in French from now on, in order to make my inquiries crystal clear. Maybe this will refrain you from posting irrelevant comments about the language.

[dthames 0]

ASOT_QC

by all means... thanks for the comment, I really appreciate your help. I'm convinced everyone will understand me better with your intervention. I shall post in French from now on, in order to make my inquiries crystal clear. Maybe this will refrain you from posting irrelevant comments about the language.

Speaking for myself, it is often clear that the OP does not have English as his/her first language. I find it easy to look past the minor errors and focus on the content. I knew what you meant, and I don't speak French.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[almeister112 0]

I've done something similar to myself twice now when unstowing my brakes. I jump a Storm, which has super long excess brake line to stow, so it was easy to tie the toggle to the riser by not paying attention and looping my hand through excess brake line that had come loose from the keeper. I've attached a picture of the second time it happened (I wasn't worried about landing it, since I had done it before).

3 things I've done to fix the problem:

1, I always stow my toggles with the excess to the inside of my risers, so when I reach from the outside I'm less likely to loop my hand through.

2, I triple-fold the excess line when I pack, which reduces the chances of it coming out early.

3, I look at my damn toggles to make sure I'm not being an idiot and tying a knot.

[pchapman 261]

Nice pics almeister. That's one of those "things to download from DZ to use as an example if you ever need a photo".

[dpreguy 14]

I get it. Extractor is your version of "thingy". No reason to be precise.

[riggerrob 558]

dpreguy

I get it. Extractor is your version of "thingy". No reason to be precise.

......................................................................

"Extracteur" or "extractor" is the formal, French term for what Americans call a "pilot-chute."

The French term is more logical to my ears.

[dpreguy 14]

Sorry to be a distraction, If that's what it is in French, I'm OK with it. I'll stop

[riggerrob 558]

dpreguy

Sorry to be a distraction, If that's what it is in French, I'm OK with it. I'll stop

.............................................................................

Kind of like a Frenchman trying to order a "glisseur" or slider the same way he might order a pair of "elevateurs" or "risers."

[Doug_Davis 0]

ASOT_QC

by all means... thanks for the comment, I really appreciate your help. I'm convinced everyone will understand me better with your intervention. I shall post in French from now on, in order to make my inquiries crystal clear. Maybe this will refrain you from posting irrelevant comments about the language.

+1

[erdnarob 1]

It happens to me a couple of times. I have probably undone by mistake the toggle pin locking the end of the steering line excess which came out of the lower keeper. The loop became loose and got over the toggle handle. I then released my toggle thru the steering line excess loop and got a knot at the upper keeper. I decided to practice my flare in altitude with the good side toogle and the other riser of the bad side. My landing was more or less OK.

Fantastic picture illustrating exactly the problem, thanks. I have took it as a screen capture.

Solution: before grabbing the toogles take a second or two and have a look. If necessary, get the loop out of the way then grab and pull the toogles

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[JohnMitchell 14]

almeister112

I've done something similar to myself twice now when unstowing my brakes.

1, I always stow my toggles with the excess to the inside of my risers, so when I reach from the outside I'm less likely to loop my hand through.

3, I look at my damn toggles to make sure I'm not being an idiot and tying a knot.

Me too, on my Stiletto. Could we be idiot twins, separated at birth?

First time, I landed using rear-riser/good-toggle and had to PLF. Next time, I reached above the knot and used steering-line/good-toggle and had a nice stand up landing.

[JohnMitchell 14]

ASOT_QC

I shall post in French from now on, in order to make my inquiries crystal clear.

Your englais is much meilleur than my French. Please feel free to post in any language you wish.