HeadCone 0 #201 January 11, 2007 Exactly one of the two following statements is true: Statement #1: The number of gods is zero. Statement #2: The number of gods is greater than or equal to one. There is no other possibility. Both can't be true nor can both be false. Exactly one must be true. No one can prove either statement. Therefore, there are three types of people: Person Type #1: Those who contend that Statement #1 is the case. (these people *believe* there is no god (remember, no one can prove it)) Person Type #2: Those who contend that Statement #2 is the case. (these people *believe* there is a god or gods (remember, no one can prove it)) Person Type #3: Those who haven't come to a conclusion one way or the other. These people: a: never heard of or considered the concept of god b: don't care whether or not there's a god c: are still trying to figure out where they stand There is no other type of person. You either believe Statement #1, believe Statement #2, or haven't finished your analysis of whether or not god exists. My understanding of the terminology is: If you're Person Type #1: you're an Atheist. If you're Person Type #2: you're a Theist of some sort. If you're Person Type #3: Agnostic or some other word is the correct term. Yes? No? Where (if anywhere ) am I wrong? --Head-- Turn off the internet! Join Citizens United Negating Technology For Life And People's Safety! http://www.citizensunitednegatingtechnology.org/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #202 January 11, 2007 QuoteFor those of us that have never considered any organised religion to be any more plausible than that pixie then taking a stand and calling ourselves 'atheist' really doesn't take that much 'faith' at all. You've never "considered any organised religion to be .... plausible"? I thought we were talking about deities, not churches. I believe that organized religions exist. I just don't know (and never will know) if they have any theological basis for existence - only business and political interests. The abuse of that is what most people care about and it's more my interest in discussing those actions rather than some futile attempt to undermine the philosophical subjective (and harmless) basis for the structure. Better to correct the application of the beliefs than to try to eliminate those beliefs. Elimination is impossible (more matter how insulting and derisive and condescending the opponents are) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #203 January 11, 2007 QuoteYou've never "considered any organised religion to be .... plausible"? I thought we were talking about deities, not churches. Ok, loose wording. I have never for one moment considered the supernatural concept at the heart of any religion to be more plausible than Tinkerbell the fairy. Believing that any particular God does not exist requires no more faith from me than believing there isn't a leprechaun at the end of the rainbow. I'm not saying that to be insulting or condescending any more than Steve is when he tells me God does exist. Its just context for what I think about religion. QuoteThe abuse of that is what most people care about and it's more my interest in discussing those actions rather than some futile attempt to undermine the philosophical subjective (and harmless) basis for the structure. The belief makes the abuse possible. The stronger and more precisely defined the belief, the easier the abuse becomes.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #204 January 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteThe abuse of that is what most people care about and it's more my interest in discussing those actions rather than some futile attempt to undermine the philosophical subjective (and harmless) basis for the structure. The belief makes the abuse possible. The stronger and more precisely defined the belief, the easier the abuse becomes. Nice rationalization. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #205 January 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe abuse of that is what most people care about and it's more my interest in discussing those actions rather than some futile attempt to undermine the philosophical subjective (and harmless) basis for the structure. The belief makes the abuse possible. The stronger and more precisely defined the belief, the easier the abuse becomes. Nice rationalization. Its rational all by itself. Take a person who thinks that in order for the universe to make sense there must have been some kind of god type power that kicked everything off - but they don't really know what it was or whether its particularly interested in humans - there isn't much there for an agitator to work on. It's difficult to use that kind of belief to get someone really riled up. Take someone who knows that there is a god, knows specifically which one, and knows what commandments he left for mankind to follow. Its much easier to get that person following the piper, sending money to the ministries, rallying round political causes etc.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #206 January 11, 2007 QuoteThe belief makes the abuse possible. The stronger and more precisely defined the belief, the easier the abuse becomes. I disagree. The abuse is the issue. The belief of these people is generally a positive force on their lives and society. Don't confuse the individuals with the orgs. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,394 #207 January 11, 2007 >a: never heard of or considered the concept of god >b: don't care whether or not there's a god >c: are still trying to figure out where they stand >There is no other type of person. d.) People who don't know, and may never know e.) People who are taking Pascal's Wager at face value Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #208 January 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteThe belief makes the abuse possible. The stronger and more precisely defined the belief, the easier the abuse becomes. I disagree. The abuse is the issue. The belief of these people is generally a positive force on their lives and society. Don't confuse the individuals with the orgs. See my above reply. Besides, how can we actually tell if belief has a positive impact? People may think it does but for the most part they have no frame of reference. They can't compare their state of belief with a state of non-belief because they've never been in a state of non-belief. How do they know they wouldn't be just as happy if they'd never believed anything? For every account of someone finding god and being transformed there's an account of someone leaving god and feeling liberated.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #209 January 11, 2007 QuoteBesides, how can we actually tell if belief has a positive impact? People may think it does but for the most part they have no frame of reference. They can't compare their state of belief with a state of non-belief because they've never been in a state of non-belief. How do they know they wouldn't be just as happy if they'd never believed anything? I suspect studies could be conducted.......but, without that: we come down to it really doesn't matter. We need to just ignore the zealot theists, ignore the zealot atheists, (ignore the mockery of both by the agnostics) and recognize the rest are just regular people that can 'believe' either theory as they consider best for their personal well being and that of their families. QuoteFor every account of someone finding god and being transformed there's an account of someone leaving god and feeling liberated. I don't see why the discussion turns to 'conversion' from one point to the other. That's a small sample, I'd rather focus more on the mass of population that has either of beliefs their whole lives. They really set the tone for the values of a culture. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #210 January 11, 2007 Quote>Pascal's Wager http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/wager.html chickens HC's "no other type of person" comment was about the 3 types of people, not the list of 3 types of agnostics as you appended to.... your d = his a, your e = his c (they are just playing it safe as they may never take a stand) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #211 January 11, 2007 QuotePerson Type #3: Those who haven't come to a conclusion one way or the other. These people: a: never heard of or considered the concept of god b: don't care whether or not there's a god c: are still trying to figure out where they stand There is no other type of person. You either believe Statement #1, believe Statement #2, or haven't finished your analysis of whether or not god exists. I wouldn't necessarily say that agnostics haven't finished their analysis of whether god exists. I think many of them have come to the conclusion that they simply cannot know whether god exists or not, and that is where they stand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #212 January 11, 2007 ditto - the "don't care/don't matter/can't tell" group really aren't working towards voting yea or nay ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #213 January 11, 2007 QuoteOk pet peeve of mine. Why do otherwise educated and intelligent people keep on misusing the term agnosticism? In part due to a lack of respect for them? But sorry, I didn't assert that all non Christians or atheists are agnostics. There are Buddists (who I like for their non pushiness, and admire for their brilliant pay to pray fundrasing), Muslums, and many more. But the 3 I discussed have the 3 possible answers on the existence of God. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeadCone 0 #214 January 11, 2007 I got a little sloppy with this text: There is no other type of person. You either believe Statement #1, believe Statement #2, or haven't finished your analysis of whether or not god exists. The a, b, and c just before that are reasons why someone would be a Person Type #3 and it's not meant to be an all-inclusive list. The "There is no other type of person." sentence was meant for the person type list, not the a, b, c list. The "haven't finished your analysis of whether or not god exists" phrase is not an accurate restatement of my description for Person Type #3. It implies an active pursuit of what to believe and that's not always the case with this person type. It should have read, "or don't have a belief in either statement." Since writing that first post, I realized I missed an extremely odd type of person. Those who believe both statements. Since both statements can't be true, these people would have to be insane. Since there are so few, perhaps none, I'll leave them off the list for now. --Head-- Turn off the internet! Join Citizens United Negating Technology For Life And People's Safety! http://www.citizensunitednegatingtechnology.org/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pds 0 #215 January 16, 2007 i have known my truth (there is no god) since i was a child. there have been days that i have wished that i was wrong about everything but i come up with the same donut every time. oh well. i like xians just fine. i especially like mormon people, they are nice. most atheists that i know rarely if ever offer up unsolicited criticism of other's beliefs. If you see someone sticking thier head up and making a lot of noise about the rightiousness of atheism i would posit they really are not yet quite sure where they stand. (excluding those like richard dawkins of course who sometimes delights in bending, folding and spindling just before burning the claims of some of the more, em, outspoken believers.) just my thoughts.namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #216 January 16, 2007 Quote>a: never heard of or considered the concept of god >b: don't care whether or not there's a god >c: are still trying to figure out where they stand >There is no other type of person. d.) People who don't know, and may never know e.) People who are taking Pascal's Wager at face value you forgot two Bill f.)Bronco's fans, who will die and go to heaven and partake in the stripper factory and beer volcanoe with teh flying spaghetti monster g.)Raider's fan's, who will die and spend an eternity in hell watching every TV show ever to star Rosie O'DonellHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skysaintj 0 #217 January 16, 2007 QuoteIs it me or is it just the people here in SC that love to expend their energy, more like waste their energy, in debating with Christians about their bibles, belief in jesus, god, heaven and hell? IMO I stand strong in what I don't want to/wish to not believe in. I don't go around wasting my time/energy asking inane questions or debating with those that have blind faith. I work in the city and I encounter hundreds of emotionally disturbed individuals in the street. Do I start asking them why they believe that they're from Mars or why they believe that the world is coming to an end today? NO. What do I do? I simply walk across the street to avoid them and go about my business. Therefore, why would anyone here that is an Atheist/Unbeliever want to be curious or argue points about things that don't exist or things that they don't believe in? It just doesn't make any sense to me. I'd rather stand strong in what I don't want to believe in and concentrate in what I do believe in this life such as, money, beer, skydiving, picking up chicks every night and getting laid! If we limit our choices only to what seems possible or reasonable, we disconnect ourselves from what we truly want, and all that is left is compromise .If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #218 January 16, 2007 QuoteIf we limit our choices only to what seems possible or reasonable, we disconnect ourselves from what we truly want, and all that is left is compromise . It's a good thing to have an open mind, just not so open that your brains fall out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
