Honest questions for God

[jakee 1,254]

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Is Homer's Odyssey evidence for the existence of Zeus?

Is Homer's Odyssey considered non-fiction?

It was written for precisely the same reason as the Old Testament.

What was that reason?

Putting down on paper a lot of things that were oral tradition about God(s), history, cultural heros, ethnic identity, the afterlife etc. etc. yada yada.

The Greek religious and heroic tradition was a lot less unified than the Judaic one, spread around the Theogeny, the Iliad, the Odyssey etc. but it was certainly taken no less seriously. In ancient Greece you could find people who would literally believe every word of those books as Paj believes in the Bible, who believed in it as metaphor with a divine message as perhaps Speedracer does, or those who thought it was all a bit silly when it came to the God parts but had some decent cultural ideals anyway, kinda like Billvon maybe.

So when it comes to the authorship of the Odyssey it is no more or less fiction than the Old Testament is.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[NCclimber 0]

So, people believe the story of The Odyssey was a historical event?

[JackC 0]

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You proved religion is not science, and thus it should not be subjugated to the same principles. What is your point?

So what? Evidence is evidence. Is the news footage of the WTC on 9/11 evidence that a plane flew into a building? History is not science either. If religion shouldn't be held to the same levels of scrutiny as science or any other real world discipline, what levels should it be held to? And you're going to have to justify why it gets a special pass.

Is this horse dead yet? My flogging arm is getting tired.

[steveorino 7]

To many, religion is more like art than science. It is subjective. it is not alone in "getting a pass". Art, music, philsophy to name a few.

EDITED TO ADD: I'm not down playing religion's importance by equating it to art and philosophy, but rarther I am merely pointing out it is NOT a science. Is it similar to history? Maybe, but as a Texan I know the history is not always B&W. The Pena papers throw a lot of cold water on my Texas history of Davey Crockett and the Alamo.

steveOrino

[JackC 0]

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To many, religion is more like art than science. It is subjective. it is not alone in "getting a pass". Art, music, philsophy to name a few.

OK. In that case, a persons religion is about as important to others as their personal choice in music. Trying to put the 10 commandments on a courthouse should be recognised as being as relevant as putting up the lyrics to Bat out of Hell. I think there's something wrong with the analogy.

I'd question you putting philosopy in the list though.

[Remster 24]

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To many, religion is more like art than science. It is subjective.

Stop posting to this thread Steve. You're not polarizing the debate enough!

Seriously, I do appreciate your views on this. if religion works for you, and you can see its a personal belief that cant be proven, and doesnt need to be for you, then fine by me.

What really gets me going is people claiming so much of the scripture is fact, the proven and undisputable word of god, or even better, carries hidden numerical messages about nuclear attacks in 2006 2007. Dont bring religion or the bible into the realm of fact and science. It doesnt belong there.

Remster

[jakee 1,254]

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So, people believe the story of The Odyssey was a historical event?

There may well be people who still believe the literal truth of the Odyssey. You do realise that Homers works were a fundamental part of the Olympian religion right? Its no more crazy than those who believe the literal truth of the OT.

What is your point anyway?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

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Trying to put the 10 commandments on a courthouse should be recognised as being as relevant as putting up the lyrics to Bat out of Hell.

as a non-believer, I still have no issue with the 10. at least the last 7, and the first three don't affect me one way or the other......

I think in terms of social responsibility, they have quite a bit more relevance than the lyrics of Bat Out of Hell

(the last 7 - don't lie or steal or kill, stay faithful to your spouse, don't envy what others have, be decent to your parents. Does anyone really have an issue with these? Now if we specificaly talk about a courthouse, I'd think it would be more relevant to sticking with the "don't bear false witness", don't kill, steal or envy ones only, I don't the relevance of the first 4 on a courthouse.

But they seem to come in a set most of the time )

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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if religion works for you, and you can see its a personal belief that cant be proven, and doesnt need to be for you, then fine by me.

What really gets me going is people claiming so much of the scripture is fact, the proven and undisputable word of god, or even better, carries hidden numerical messages about nuclear attacks in 2006 2007. Dont bring religion or the bible into the realm of fact and science. It doesnt belong there.

I really like this post. The first paragraph is a literal definition of faith.

The 2nd highlights what bugs me about the more fanatical types.

most christians I know don't do the 2nd paragraph, those that do make it tough on the rest of them

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Remster 24]

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most christians I know don't do the 2nd paragraph,

Same here.

Remster

[NCclimber 0]

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The 2nd highlights what bugs me about the more fanatical types.

most christians I know don't do the 2nd paragraph, those that do make it tough on the rest of them

I'd guess most people around here have a similar experience with Christians, yet so many seem intent on characterizing all/most Christians as the fanatical types.

[steveorino 7]

I need to clarify that I am simply not pragmatic about my faith. I don't follow the path that says whatever works for you is okay. I really believe JC is the way, the truth and the life. I wish everyone could see what I see. However, I am convinced no one will see that if I try and cram that belief down their throat. I'm called to be the "salt of the earth" Salt serves many purposes. It enhances, it preserves, it cleanses, but an overdose of it tastes terrible and can possibly kill you. Ever hear of not drinking salt water when stranded on the ocean?

steveOrino

[Shotgun 1]

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the last 7 - don't lie or steal or kill, stay faithful to your spouse, don't envy what others have, be decent to your parents. Does anyone really have an issue with these?

Yes. I don't really see anything wrong with coveting my neighbor's male slave.

[Remster 24]

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Yes. I don't really see anything wrong with coveting my neighbor's male slave.

You had to bring this down to the gutter, didnt ya...


Thanks!

Remster

[Shotgun 1]

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You had to bring this down to the gutter, didnt ya...

Well, God told me that is my purpose in life.

Hmm, wait... God is the one with the red pointy tail and horns, isn't he??? Or have I been listening to the wrong dude all along???

[Mockingbird 0]

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Scripture is not data, it's heresay. There is no way that an editted translation of second hand information, written decades after the event would ever be allowed as evidence in a court of law. It just wouldn't wash. You seem to have an odd idea of what constitutes data.

I don't think you got my point; here it is again: Scripture is data, but you won't understand that unless you lay aside your bias and look into it... I'm speaking of the authorship, a comparison of the manuscripts, its internal cohesiveness, etc. etc. and so forth and so on, etc........

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[unformed 0]

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Scripture is not data, it's heresay. There is no way that an editted translation of second hand information, written decades after the event would ever be allowed as evidence in a court of law. It just wouldn't wash. You seem to have an odd idea of what constitutes data.

I don't think you got my point; here it is again: Scripture is data, but you won't understand that unless you lay aside your bias and look into it... I'm speaking of the authorship, a comparison of the manuscripts, its internal cohesiveness, etc. etc. and so forth and so on, etc........

Authorship, commonality between manuscripts, and internal cohesiveness does not constitute truth, just good writing.

Truth is acquired by assuming something to be false and proving otherwise.

Faith is acquired by assuming something to be true, and believing in it without proof.

This ad space for sale.

[billvon 2,384]

>God is the one with the red pointy tail and horns, isn't he??? Or
>have I been listening to the wrong dude all along???

You should ask Kris! She's been told she's listening to the devil, so she might be able to give you some insight . . .

[kallend 1,621]

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There is considerable reason for belief in the scientific method as a way of investigating the workings of the universe.

I agree. The scientific method, when it can be used and used properly, is a valuable tool (tho' not perfect). No quarrel with you there.

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Based on empirical evidence, there is no justification whatsoever for a belief in the supernatural.

Whether there has been or will be enough empirical evidence for the supernatural to suit everybody, I don't know. (For many at the time, an empty tomb was sufficient). But what I asked was whether you would agree that you could be mistaken in your presupposition about the non-existence of God and/or the supernatural.

There are many natural explanations for an empty tomb - just ask someone like David Copperfield. No need to invoke the supernatural.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,621]

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Trying to put the 10 commandments on a courthouse should be recognised as being as relevant as putting up the lyrics to Bat out of Hell.

as a non-believer, I still have no issue with the 10. at least the last 7, and the first three don't affect me one way or the other......

I think in terms of social responsibility, they have quite a bit more relevance than the lyrics of Bat Out of Hell

(the last 7 - don't lie or steal or kill, stay faithful to your spouse, don't envy what others have, be decent to your parents. Does anyone really have an issue with these? Now if we specificaly talk about a courthouse, I'd think it would be more relevant to sticking with the "don't bear false witness", don't kill, steal or envy ones only, I don't the relevance of the first 4 on a courthouse.

But they seem to come in a set most of the time )

Of course, the Egyptians, Sumerians, Chinese, Indians... all had similar codes of behavior that were contemporary with or predated the supposed date of Moses. It's not like the 10 were novel in any way.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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Of course, the Egyptians, Sumerians, Chinese, Indians... all had similar codes of behavior that were contemporary with or predated the supposed date of Moses. It's not like the 10 were novel in any way.

I have no issue with that. People evolved a similar set of rules for interpersonal behavior. It doesn't have to be counterintuitive to be revelational - heck, half of the work I do here is acting on what seems obvious to me with engineers that are too dug in to see the obvious stuff.

that's a good thing

Can I now assume you have no issue, then, with courthouses having the 10 (or at least the 7) clearly displayed, engraved, carved, or applied in a public fashion?

Since, they are clearly not an acknowledgment of a single religion and are, actually, just a generic representation of most all religions as well as non-religious belief (excepting those that believe in stealing, killing, etc)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,621]

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Of course, the Egyptians, Sumerians, Chinese, Indians... all had similar codes of behavior that were contemporary with or predated the supposed date of Moses. It's not like the 10 were novel in any way.

I have no issue with that. People evolved a similar set of rules for interpersonal behavior. It doesn't have to be counterintuitive to be revelational - heck, half of the work I do here is acting on what seems obvious to me with engineers that are too dug in to see the obvious stuff.

that's a good thing

Can I now assume you have no issue, then, with courthouses having the 10 (or at least the 7) clearly displayed, engraved, carved, or applied in a public fashion?

Since, they are clearly not an acknowledgment of a single religion and are, actually, just a generic representation of most all religions as well as non-religious belief (excepting those that believe in stealing, killing, etc)

I'm a great believer in primacy. I think the Code of Hammurabi should have preference over the X (or VII).

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm a great believer in primacy.

I consider it a pointless source of bickering.

What have you done for me lately?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,621]

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I'm a great believer in primacy.

I consider it a pointless source of bickering.

What have you done for me lately?

See the other God thread.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DSE 3]

It's kinda messed up that Pajarito was able to post the same post in multiple threads/cross threads. It seems to have a confusing effect.

Y'know... this thread has been a lot of fun, and after driving for several hours and doing some reflecting on what I've read, God revealed this to me.

1. If you believe in the bible, that's wonderful for you. How about keeping it to yourself? In return, I won't share my dirty little secrets with you privately or publically. I'll even try to keep other non-Christians from publically displaying what we probably both agree is inappropriate for children.

2. Faith without empirical evidence of actuality, is not a religion, it's a cult. If you "feel" you've got proof, evidence, just remember that what you require for evidence may or may not meet my need for beyond a reasonable doubt. Either way, if I don't hear about your religion or cult attacking my beliefs, I won't attack yours. I promise.

3. Whether the bible is true or not really doesn't matter, all that matters is what you believe. Where it gets really screwed, is not what god or jesus said or didn't say. Argue that all you want.
But at the end of the day, what seems to matter most is "what did god/jesus _mean_ when they spoke? What was the context? "
Some folks (like Steveorino) seem to have a pretty good grip on it. Some people are seriously in need of reality counseling like XXXX and XXXXX. Gotta give props to Pajarito for believing and standing up for it in his own name, instead of hiding in cowardly anonymity, even if I do think his view of the world is incredibly fallacious.
I'll never believe in the bible; I know for sure, and divinity has confirmed in my heart, that the bible is a work is a collection of fictional works by a bunch of ego-driven "I was close to Jesus/God" people. I know for an absolute certainty that the book is a best-selling bag of bullshit, much like the DaVinci code except it's not as fun to read.
I suspect many people here feel that the bible is bullshit and is best found in the outhouse when the roll is gone.
There are those that believe it's the "Word of God."
That's OK by me, you're welcome to your illusions, just as I am. However, please realize that the meaning of those words may be interpreted differently by different people. In the past, it's been used by bigots, racists, black/red/brown/yellow people, homophobics, homosexuals, and every other two legged creature to circumvent civility and reality, not to mention humanity and social responsibility.
From my view, if you believe in the bible/god/deity, you're using God's name or Jesus' name in vain when using interpretations of the bible to
~participate in the Holocaust
~murder hundreds of thousands of Native Americans through a wide variety of nefarious means
~prevent interracial marriages
~condemn men or women based on sexual preference
~hate/segregate/eliminate others based on race or creed, or geographic locale.
~used to judge/condemn/condone the actions and behaviors of others in or out of your particular faith.

Hitler was a "Christian." David Duke is a "Christian." Jim Bakker, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Mark Foley, Ted Haggard, The Navigators, Billy Graham, Jim Wallis, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Cope, Charles Colson, George W. Bush, Pajarito, NCClimber are all Christians.
If that's any role call of whose going to be in heaven, I surely don't want to be there. Thankfully, it's not a worry. Cuz I wanna continue to swear on occasion, enjoy the scenery on the beach, put my family first All four of those attributes will prevent me from entering heaven, according to many Christians and Pajrito's website (I failed his test miserably but I don't think that makes me a bad person. It's just a fucked up, bullying, scare-tactic test).

Long before there were laws of the bible, there were laws of social order either written or inherited. Humans have lived for thousands of years before jesus/god and did pretty damn well. In some ways, better than today. The bible and it's numerous variations have been used as a wedge in society for 1500 years and the televangelists, psychotic jesus-screamers on the streets, and our current president of the USA have recently wielded a sledgehammer to further drive that wedge, citing god, jesus, and the bible as a justification for war and slaughter of innocents. I don't have to believe in jesus or god to know that these stratifications and justifications are completely fucked up. No person of intelligence does.
Is this *really* what god/jesus wanted from the world?
I don't think so.
Dear god, I'm full of shit, yeah?