shropshire 0 #126 December 16, 2006 <> fights chance for very cheap dig at friends in America........... (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #127 December 16, 2006 Quote<> fights chance for very cheap dig at friends in America........... _____________________________________ You don't miss a thing... do you? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #128 December 16, 2006 As my mom used to say ..... I'm trying (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #129 December 16, 2006 QuoteAs my mom used to say ..... I'm trying ______________________________ Mom, would be proud! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #130 December 16, 2006 Usually in repect of .... Tony, you're trying my patients (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #131 December 16, 2006 Quote Quote La Raza Atzlan Mecha Reconquista We're learning, all right...but I don't think it's the same lesson you're envisioning... Uh-huh. Once again painting Hispanics with a broad brush. 'Smatter? Too brown? Deal with it. Imagine that we had a few million Chinese, Asia-Pacific, and Indian subcontinent immigrants in the neighborhood to balance things out. Too bad we stopped letting them in. Seriously. What you are looking at is another failure of octogenarian economic policies. Our grandparents and great grandparents tried to cash out on the human investment that made this country what it is. Proposing to tighten immigration any further is like the Fed clamping down on the money supply in 1930. The economic effects of immigration (iow population growth) take place much more gradually than conventional money supply manipulation techniques, but build over time to enormous proportions.My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #132 December 16, 2006 Quote Usually in repect of .... Tony, you're trying my patients __________________________________ I heard a lot of that, myself! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #133 December 17, 2006 QuoteImagine that we had a few million Chinese, Asia-Pacific, and Indian subcontinent immigrants in the neighborhood to balance things out. Too bad we stopped letting them in. You guys should try living and working in a truly multi-cultural environment. It will really open up your eyes as to whether or not you're a racists, a part-time racist or someone who's open to multi-culturalism. Since moving back to my native Canada where the country has changed very much in my 8 year absence (yes I do miss the good weather of Colorado and I do miss being able to jump all 12 months of the year), anyway I have worked in Vancouver BC where I felt I was at the United Nations working with people from China, India, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Chile, Argentina, Russia, Serbia, Croatia, Poland, the Netherlands, France and the UK. Plus now I'm back in Calgary Alberta (the so called redneck province of Canada) and once again I find myself working with people from China, India, Vietnam, Sri Lanka and the UK. Why do I tell you this. Because it has been a test of my character. It has been a test to determine if I am a racist or if I am open to these people living and working in my country. It hasn't always been easy (I was definitely a minority in Vancouver and now in Calgary 1/2 the people I work with are immigrants). But in this time I have learned a few things about myself and one thing I have learned is that I don't care what color of skin someone has or what religion they follow and I believe immigration isn't a bad thing just as long as the people immigrating to our respective countries are independent, driven and respectful of the local culture of their new country. Now not all immigrants are independent, driven and respectful. But you really need to read the book (ie: get to know the people by talking to them) instead of judging them by their covers (ie: judging them by the color of their skin). Remember I was a temporary immigrant in the USA for 8 years and I value my 8 years in that country. It taught me a lot about you guys. It taught me that for all the bad that comes from your country, there was an equal amount of good that came from it and it all kind of balances itself out. Plus I had the advantage of being a caucasian while I was in the USA and my Canadian status was never noticed just as long as I kept my 'OU's in check (yes some of us up here in Canad'ia sound funny when we talk ... I never noticed this until I returned after living in the States for 8 years). PS: My comments are generic and not specifically directed at nathaniel. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #134 December 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteImagine that we had a few million Chinese, Asia-Pacific, and Indian subcontinent immigrants in the neighborhood to balance things out. Too bad we stopped letting them in. You guys should try living and working in a truly multi-cultural environment. It will really open up your eyes as to whether or not you're a racists, a part-time racist or someone who's open to multi-culturalism. Since moving back to my native Canada where the country has changed very much in my 8 year absence (yes I do miss the good weather of Colorado and I do miss being able to jump all 12 months of the year), anyway I have worked in Vancouver BC where I felt I was at the United Nations working with people from China, India, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Chile, Argentina, Russia, Serbia, Croatia, Poland, the Netherlands, France and the UK. Plus now I'm back in Calgary Alberta (the so called redneck province of Canada) and once again I find myself working with people from China, India, Vietnam, Sri Lanka and the UK. Why do I tell you this. Because it has been a test of my character. It has been a test to determine if I am a racist or if I am open to these people living and working in my country. It hasn't always been easy (I was definitely a minority in Vancouver and now in Calgary 1/2 the people I work with are immigrants). But in this time I have learned a few things about myself and one thing I have learned is that I don't care what color of skin someone has or what religion they follow and I believe immigration isn't a bad thing just as long as the people immigrating to our respective countries are independent, driven and respectful of the local culture of their new country. Now not all immigrants are independent, driven and respectful. But you really need to read the book (ie: get to know the people by talking to them) instead of judging them by their covers (ie: judging them by the color of their skin). Remember I was a temporary immigrant in the USA for 8 years and I value my 8 years in that country. It taught me a lot about you guys. It taught me that for all the bad that comes from your country, there was an equal amount of good that came from it and it all kind of balances itself out. Plus I had the advantage of being a caucasian while I was in the USA and my Canadian status was never noticed just as long as I kept my 'OU's in check (yes some of us up here in Canad'ia sound funny when we talk ... I never noticed this until I returned after living in the States for 8 years). PS: My comments are generic and not specifically directed at nathaniel. ___________________________________ What a good post! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #135 December 17, 2006 Very good post. Your comments about tests of character are spot on. When the debate over illegal immigration truly focuses on the "illegal" aspect, that's usually on the "pass" side of the test. Problem is, some people use the illegal immigration debate as a smokescreen to lend a veneer of legitimacy to their own xenophobia, or worse. That's when it's proper to call bullshit on them. Of course, they protest oh-so-loudly when they're outed. Great observations in your post. And remember, "a boot" refers to footware. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #136 December 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteI'd say it's a pretty safe bet to say the average illegal is an uneducated, hispanic male, who doesn't speak English above a rudimentary level. Such a level of education and ability to use the English language is not exclusive of illegal aliens. In any case, why is that so important? As long as they are working their asses off for a few dollars to feed their families and not causing any trouble, why does it even matter if they are fluent in English or not? The translation of "it's a pretty safe bet" is "I have absolutely no data". For someone who professes (sarcasm intended) to shape young people's minds, you do have a penchant for cheapshot posts. I'm sure you're quite a role model. For all the posters who think opposition to ILLEGAL immigration is just a matter of bigotry and xenophobia, I recommend you read up on the issue. Maybe you could even read what those with different ideologies have to say about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #137 December 18, 2006 QuoteFor all the posters who think opposition to ILLEGAL immigration is just a matter of bigotry and xenophobia, Of course it's not "just" that. But if bigotry and xenophobia were eliminated from the mix, the decibel volume of the debate would be a whole hell of a lot less. And I also take note of those (not just here, but generally) who have been taking thinly-veiled swipes at ALL Hispanic immigrants, using the smokescreen of the debate over "illegals" as convenient cover. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #138 December 18, 2006 QuoteFor all the posters who think opposition to ILLEGAL immigration is just a matter of bigotry and xenophobia, I recommend you read up on the issue. why, it's easier to call names? They won't get a green fork for it here ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #139 December 18, 2006 Quote why, it's easier to call names? They won't get a green fork for it here Some names are deductive.My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #140 December 18, 2006 Quotewhy, it's easier to call names? They won't get a green fork for it here Hell some of us get a green fork when not even calling names..I guess its all highly subjective. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #141 December 18, 2006 QuoteQuotewhy, it's easier to call names? They won't get a green fork for it here Hell some of us get a green fork when not even calling names..I guess its all highly subjective. the whole process is forked up. but I hear it's the best we can do so far.... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #142 December 18, 2006 >For all the posters who think opposition to ILLEGAL immigration is just a matter of bigotry and xenophobia . . . Objection to illegal immigration is not the issue. The issue I have a problem with is people objecting to mexicans. Often, such objections are disguised by saying "it's really ILLEGAL immigrants I object to" - but these people also tend to have no problem with, say, illegal norwegian, british or german immigrants. "No, I'm against illegal immigrants, not people like Ursula - she's just a packer! She's not mexican." A while back I posted pictures of several skydivers, and asked which one was the illegal immigrant. Most people chose the picture of the hispanic woman, a woman who in fact was born in New Jersey. People make such snap judgements all the time. It's understandable, but unfortunate - and is NOT the same as being against "illegal immigration." (Note that I'm not saying that you do this, just explaining what I take issue with.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #143 December 18, 2006 I recall your post it was a neat exercise to offer. I don't think a single person even responded to your post with the pics of skydivers. Yet you claim "most people" chose the picture of the New Jersey woman (and we are always grateful for pics of Eliana who is sweet and beautiful and a remarkable talent and personality). Are you sure you aren't just assuming the (potential) responses of the posters were aligned with your preconceived stereotypes you have of people? We'd understand being you are from California and all..... send a link, I might have missed weekend responders while not visiting DZ.com..... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #144 December 18, 2006 >Yet you claim "most people" chose the picture of the New Jersey woman . . . Yes. She was the only picture even mentioned in the replies. ("most" was probably a bad word - "only" would have been better.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #145 December 18, 2006 Quote>Yet you claim "most people" chose the picture of the New Jersey woman . . . Yes. She was the only picture even mentioned in the replies. ("most" was probably a bad word - "only" would have been better.) heck, I might even have been the one to mention her for all I know. I recall misreading Kurt's profile on skyleague.com and thought she was from Columbia.....But that would only indicate another country, not the illegal or legal status. Turns out her parents were, not her directly... But even that would be from reading about the INDIVIDUAL, not from the picture. (I'm a bit of a 4-way fan) the point is, "most" people, especially on this site work in very diverse and large companies, DZs or are in college or university or live in very large cities (there are exceptions). Based on that, I don't think your assumptions would fly.... The most immigrants I know are legal, from either asia or east europe, have PhDs and I'm glad they are here. If I know any illegals, they haven't really made it public..... I wonder if the illegals = hispanic thing is mostly with those from Florida, Arizona, Cali, and Texas....... certainly that would explain a skydiver bias in that direction since that's a large concentration of skydivers in those states.... We get just about everybody in our state..... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #146 December 18, 2006 >If I know any illegals, they haven't really made it public..... I know several. One of them taught me much of what I know about tunnel flying; she's one of the best 4-way flyers in Europe. She was the illegal immigrant in that series of pictures I posted. I wish she had come here to work legally; she was a great asset to the DZ, and I liked her. After that incident, there was a shake-up at local DZ's, and several packers/videographers/instructors got the boot. Most were not hispanic. That's almost certainly due to the demographic of the DZ, not the demographic of the surrounding area. Had the shakeup happened at a store in the city of Perris it would likely have been mostly hispanic. But again, there's the danger in thinking that it's a racially-oriented issue rather than a situationally-oriented issue. (Heck, I find it hard to believe that we can even label "hispanic" as "different than us" based on heritage - often that really means "those people who speak spanish.") >certainly that would explain a skydiver bias in that direction since >that's a large concentration of skydivers in those states.... We get >just about everybody in our state..... I think it's very true that people judge based on what they're used to. Heck, during college I had the distinct impression that most US immigrants were either korean or indian, and that they were all smarter than me. Now I live near an old navy base, and a lot of the people who live me are vietnamese. (Navy dudes coming back with new wives.) If I go to Chula Vista, I see mostly spanish-speaking people in the stores. I think it would be a mistake to assume things about all spanish-speaking/vietnamese/korean/indian people based on my experiences, although it's tempting because I have firsthand experience with those groups. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #147 December 18, 2006 pretty well what I've been saying too so, therefore, nice post ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
