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Andy9o8

Is mandatory celibacy responsible for sex abuse cases by Catholic priests?

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061211/ap_on_re_us/church_abuse_settlement

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Roman Catholic dioceses in the United States have paid an estimated $1.5 billion since 1950 to handle claims of sex abuse by its priests.

$1.5 billion.

Earlier this month, the Archdiocese of Los Angeles said it would pay $60 million to settle 45 abuse lawsuits, possibly selling off some of its property in Southern California to help cover the cost.



This is not simply another example of "all religions have had a few errant clergy that have engaged in sexual immorality - ministers have done it, rabbis have done it; the Catholic Church has no worse an abuse problem than any other religion."

The sheer weight of the numbers seems to indicate that it DOES have a worse problem. Perhaps the reason is: by insisting that Catholic priests, nuns and monks may not be married and must be celibate, the process itself tends to select people for those vocations who already tend to be particularly socially and sexually awkward -- people who fear a lifestyle that includes adult sexuality, so they choose an alternative lifestyle where they will not be expected to engage in normal adult sexuality. People who are, quite frankly, a little bit odd.

Put another way, if people who are inclined to choose a career madating lifetime celibacy are also inclined to be a bit odd, then a disproportionate number of Catholic priests, nuns and monks tend to be a little bit odd. And yet these are the same people to whom millions of parents entrust their children for the teaching of sexual morality. These are the same people who hold mandatory pre-cana counseling sessions to couples about to be married in the Catholic church. Is this hypocritical?

Is mandatory celibacy among priests a major factor in the epidemic of sex abuse cases involving Catholic priests?

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I'd like to know what it was that made the policy so important for the particular pope that started it, wasn't it about 400-500 years ago?

My catholic friends put a lot of importance on this tradition. They haven't been able to express why it is important to them, at least not in a way that makes sense to me.
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It certainly a factor. This is a Religion with far too many of it's aspects in the middle ages. Look at the thousands and thousands of children in Ireland literally abducted and sent to Catholic boarding schools by the welfare service to be physically and mentally abused by the nuns and priests.
In the UK there are increasing numbers of stories being printed of the victims experiences. I know someone very well, who wasn't abused sexually, but abused in nearly every nasty way a child could be abused.
These stories published make for deeply depressing reading. In fact, it's fucking outrageous how they were treated. The Catholic church should hang it's head in shame over these victims experiences.
I know many Catholics, literally the most nice and respectable people you might wish to meet. How on earth they continue to go to their churches every Sunday is beyond my comprehension.

Perhaps this vow of celibacy may not necessarily turn them into sexual monsters but it certainly seems to make a significant amount of them very bitter and twisted. Or do they live on a diet of crab apples?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

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That's a seperate question though.


as to the OP, no, I do not believe a vow of celibacy is responsible for sex abuse cases. And I am not convinced that sex abuse cases aren't as much of a problem in other denominations as well. If you can cite reliable figures, I'll listen.

There are more sex abuse cases involving school teachers than Catholic priests, & they don't take a vow of celibacy. Nor do camp counselors.
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http://www.religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex1.htm

Article about incidents of "Moral Panic" throughout history.

One excerpt about the catholic priest/pedophile thing:

Quote

Abuse rate: Few people seem to be asking whether sexual abuse of children is more common in the Roman Catholic church than in Protestant churches or other faith groups. Philip Jenkins, author of "Pedophiles and Priests" found no evidence that the incidence of child molestation among Roman Catholic priests was any greater than within other Christian denominations.


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>I'd like to know what it was that made the policy so important for the
>particular pope that started it, wasn't it about 400-500 years ago?

Celibate priests don't have kids. No kids = no inheritance issues; land goes back to the Church. The policy came about during a time (the 900's) when parishes were ruled by local warlords, with ownership of the property passing from father to son.

It should be noted that celibacy as a policy was part of the church's teaching since the Council of Elvira (300 AD) but there were a lot of loopholes that didn't really get closed until the 900's.

Good overview:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm

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Sex abusers are responsible for sex abuse.

Your post describes a potential correlation, not a cause.

I suspect the proportion of crimes in the church are not statistically different than any other profession, such as teaching or day care, where adults are primarily around kids.

...
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No. They could simply break thier vows with a consenting adult if that was the case. Having too much power and influence with little oversite while in a position of authority over young people while the church opted to turn a blind eye to avoid embarrasment caused it.
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I think it plays a part, but I also think there might be more at play.

In some of the more traditional european families, many parents "steered" a child towards the church if they felt they might be an embarrassment to the family otherwise. You know, if as a teenager they displayed overly feminine qualities, or played with dolls a little too long....

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In reply to:
I suspect the proportion of crimes in the church are not statistically different than any other profession, such as teaching or day care, where adults are primarily around kids.


Reply:
As much as I'd like to believe thats true im pretty sure its wrong.
If you deal with kids; teacher, social worker etc you have to be CRB checked (at least in the UK).

You do not have to be police checked to be a priest. Hence the ability to groom those that are vulnerable without restriction.

Enforced celibacy may cause frustration but is highly unlikely to make you a sex offender. Sex offenders arent just frustrated they are sadistic and often the victims of abuse themselves.

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While they take a vow of celibracy they do not take a vow of chastity. Interesting heh?
From a recovering catholic.
“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him.

Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966)

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IMO, yes, partially. Especially with the older generation of priests. An adult is always responsible for his actions, but in many ways the church is responsible for shaping the thoughts that prompt those actions.

50+ years ago, when someone intended to enter the priesthood, they were sent to seminary, often straight out of elementary school. Sexuality was never discussed, as it was assumed that it would be a non-issue. There was no exposure to women and no chance to develop a healthy sexual identity, no chance to learn to form relationships with the opposite sex. During a boy/young man's most sexually formative years, he was isolated among his own gender and told to focus on prayer. Those boys were never given any kind of appropriate outlet for sexual desire, and human beings are sexual creatures; those desires are bound to surface one way or another.

Because of the archaic sexual policies that, as Billvon explained, are based on inheritance issues centuries ago, the catholic church has been a haven for pedophiles. Because priests are supposed to be celibate, nobody questions why they fail to form adult partnerships.

The newer generation of priests aren't placed in the older seminary situation as often, but because of the expectation that priests shouldn't form relationships with women, it makes the priesthood attractive to people who don't want those kinds of relationships and don't want to justify why.

So, while I think that now, the church doesn't have much of a hand in creating pedophiles, they've created an atmosphere that's extremely attractive to them... no expectation of adult relationships and exposure to children while in a position of trust.

There are many, many priests out there who are passionate about the priesthood and try to be the best priests they can be, but the office of priest itself has been sullied by those who have used it to harm children. The role of a priest needs to be altered so that the priesthood doesn't require the environment that makes it so attractive to pedophiles. As long as the priesthood requires celibacy, the church is going to have issues.

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Quote

Again, we've got the same problem in other denominations that don't require celebacy. So obviously the mandatory celibacy bit isn't what's causing it.



We do? Do you have a cite for that?
...

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It is not the celibacy, but the environment. Think for a moment. A person who has a compulsion toward young boys is going to find that being a priest is a position of trust at the same time giving them access to potential victims.

Preadators are going to look for places that provide them with victims. Celibacy has nothing to do with it.
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Hi Rehmwa

Quote

Sex abusers are responsible for sex abuse



correct as usual except. IMO that's only true if their first time offenders. The church was aware of the sex abuse of certain priests they made a management decision that rather than address the issue so it wouldn't happen a again 10 billion hail marys/day every day

a simple your service's are terminated due a review of the charges and the high probility of reoffending.

Please turn in all your Black and white's ID's keys and all relious synbols issued by the church. You will be provided with a escort so you can collect and turn in your your things. and then escorted off the premises and are banned for life. A copy of our records will be fwd to the civil authorities for their review and any other corrective action they feel is required. Best of luck

Instead of addressing the problem the church enabled the sexual offenders to continue abusing innocent children by tranfering them to a new church without adequate supervion and preventing any further access to minors.

IOW First time shame on you>:( second time shame on us:($ third time even more shame and $$$.

Does seperaration of church and state give the church diplomatic immunity.? Then the church is being very generouse by paying out these large sums & allowing the Gov't to throw the churchs priests in prison.

Quote

I suspect the proportion of crimes in the church are not statistically different than any other profession, such as teaching or day care, where adults are primarily around kids.



Correct again as usual except your assuming they have equal chance to be alone with the cildren in a private setting & that these professions will ignor the problem to the same degree that the church did.

The last time we saw state of the art child care facilities 15-yr's ago ago when the Army started to buld new child care center very few blinds spots

example Bathroom facilities: childrens toilet stall dividers maybe 3' tall max.No doors used give the little one's privacy.

a lot of thought was put in the new design: childen crawl on hand and knee or are to short to look out windows New design has set of window located much lower so rugrats can look outside as the crawl by the window intead of looking at blank walls.

Private facilities: Security cameras in attmpt to remove blind spots and recors all actions by employee's and kids

Sorry gotta go before permant ban is issued, :)

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Roman Catholic seminaries have been a haven for homosexuals for generations. Little Johnny who finds he has no attraction for girls and ashamed of his peculiarity tells Mom, "I want to be a priest" and thereby escapes attention by his relatives and friends. Celibacy laws have contributed to the problem of sexual perverts in the priesthood. No man or boy awakening in the morning with an erection can explain it away by becoming a priest. It is time that the Vatican recognize the problem before the Catholic religion goes the way of the dinosaurs.
Freefall Hall

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Homosexuals are freaks of nature and 99.9% of Catholic priests are homosexuals although not necessarily practicing homosexuals. It is an abomination of nature for same sex individuals to engage in sex and a significant percentage of them are potential pedophiles.
Freefall Hall

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Quote

While they take a vow of celibracy they do not take a vow of chastity. Interesting heh?
From a recovering catholic.



http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/CHASTITY

Quote

Noun: chastity chastitee
1. Abstaining from sexual relations (as because of religious vows)
- celibacy, sexual abstention

2. Morality with respect to sexual relations
- virtue, sexual morality



To the extent you're referring to Definition #2, referring to virtue and morality: Yes, it is interesting.

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I said no.

Here is why. Growing up in Iran I remember hearing rumors about Molas (Muslim Persists) and how they are all pedophiles. Off course it was only a common rumor and negative rumors about Molas are very common in Iran. However rumors start from somewhere. Oh and Molas are allowed to get married and have sex.

So maybe the issue is the clergy? FYI If I had not heard rumors like that growing up my answer would be yes.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

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Yup, and celibate simply means single, unmarried or bound by oath to remain single. The two words are usually used interchangably but that is incorrect.
“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him.

Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966)

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