Concealed carry success story

[livendive 8]

Assault victim - 1, bad guy - 0

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003294508_westlake08m.html

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A bizarre case of what appeared to be justifiable homicide rattled the heart of Seattle's swanky downtown shopping district late Saturday morning.

Seattle police are still piecing together what happened, but this much is known: A young man was killed on the crowded sidewalk outside Westlake Center, and the confessed shooter was allowed to walk out of a police station.

The case, according to police and witnesses, began at 11 a.m. Saturday with a 911 call.

Witnesses reported a man in a yellow shirt acting erratically, insulting and threatening passing pedestrians at Pike Street and Boren Avenue near the Washington State Convention and Trade Center, said Seattle police spokeswoman Deb Brown.

A half-hour later, a man matching the same description was reported near Westlake Center. At the same time, a second man, described by witnesses as balding and wearing a leather jacket, was walking through the nearby plaza after finishing his lunch.

Neither man's identity was released by police on Saturday.

The man in the yellow shirt apparently focused in on the second man, saying, "I am going to kill you," Brown said. He then began punching and kicking the second man until the man fell to the sidewalk.

"He was down there, minding his own business. There is nothing to think he was anything but a random target," Brown said.

The victim happened to have a concealed-weapons permit, Brown said, and he was carrying a handgun. He pulled out the gun and fired once, hitting his attacker in the abdomen.

"It looked to me like he shot him in self-defense," said Linda Vu, who was across the street from the shooting, handing out fliers for political activist Lyndon LaRouche. "It's kind of crazy."

The man in the yellow shirt died after being taken to Harborview Medical Center. The King County Medical Examiner was trying to determine his identity, a task complicated by the fact that the man carried no identification.

Several nearby Seattle police officers heard the gunshot. When they arrived at the shooting scene, the victim, sitting on a streetside planter full of purple pansies, handed the gun to them and said, "I am the one who did this," according to Assistant Police Chief Jim Pugel.

The man was arrested, but after questioning him and other witnesses, detectives determined they did not have probable cause to book him into the King County Jail. The man was released. Police said they were withholding his name as a crime victim — of the assault.

It will be up to the county prosecutor to determine whether the man will face charges. But Pugel said, "It could be considered justifiable homicide."

The shooting stunned Jim and Edith Welsh, tourists from Australia who'd just left the Nordstrom store across the street when police arrived. Peering across the police tape draped across Pine Street, Welsh hugged his wife. "I think we're going back to our hotel right now," he said

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Scoop 0]

Cool story. Just unfortunate the guy died as a result of this. I wouldn't say that killing someone was justified, but he did what he had to to defend himself, I'm sure his intentions weren;t to take that guys life, just take out an agressor.

Don't get me wrong I'm not sticking up for the young man, play with fire, prepare to get burnt.

Theres always someone out there bigger, stronger or better equipped than you!

[MC208B 0]

great news! glad the shooter wasn't hurt to badly.

a woman in Portland recently killed her attacker with her bare hands (stangled his ass).

the guy was allegedly a "hitman" hired by the womans husband.

what a tool!

[Amazon 7]

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Cool story. Just unfortunate the guy died as a result of this. I wouldn't say that killing someone was justified, but he did what he had to to defend himself, I'm sure his intentions weren;t to take that guys life, just take out an agressor

I think if some guy..albeit a whack job shows up and tells me he is going to kill me and then starts wailing on me...I might just have to wail back.....and if that fails to show him the error of his ways.... I MIGHT just have to use my carry permit and ventilate the son of a bitch... thereby breaking one of gods commandments. That would be a hell of a lot of praying after that.. but at least I would be in a position to pray about it.

And as far as gut shooting an attacker... man that is harsh.. I have MUCH bettter shot placement than that.

[livendive 8]

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And as far as gut shooting an attacker... man that is harsh.. I have MUCH bettter shot placement than that.

While rolling around on the ground being kicked by an attacker who is standing over you? Center mass seems like a good choice, especially when somewhere as public and populated as Westlake at lunchtime (not wanting to worry about strays).

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Scoop 0]

In the heat of the moment, shit happens, you react and do things. You think on a primitive level. You might have a better shot placement than that on the range, but in a high stress situation when your heart rate is increased and you have the tunnel vision effect of confrontation you wont be able to do fine motor skills, gross motor skills come into play, pointing and shooting would therefore be reasonable. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have concious thought of 'I know, if I shoot centre mass theres less chance of a stray' - You think instinctively.

Either way it justifys the defenders actions. Still think its sad someone had to die over that. Gun is the weak mans leveller. I'm sure if he had fought hard enough and with a bit of support from a good natured member of the public or two he'd have been alright. Reports has no mentions of attacker having weapons

[rehmwa 2]

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Center mass seems like a good choice, especially when somewhere as public and populated as Westlake at lunchtime (not wanting to worry about strays).

stop that, this thread is for two things:

1 - macho posturing
2 - crying about the evils of guns

Let's just be glad the gun owner didn't suddenly get possessed by the firearm and uncontrollably start shooting everything in sight. If that happened, I'd have to open a can on the evil gun and beat it up while drinking a pabst and spittin' chewin' tobacky.

If a gun and an SUV were left alone in the same room, which one would become the evil overlord vs the evil underling?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Still think its sad someone had to die over that. Gun is the weak mans leveller. I'm sure if he had fought hard enough and with a bit of support from a good natured member of the public or two he'd have been alright. Reports has no mentions of attacker having weapons

So fighting the attacker until knocked to the ground before choosing to use another option is SAD and weak?

Good on this guy for being capable of making a hard decision and acting on it. The only sadness I have is for this guy who HAD to kill to protect himself. I'm sure the spectators had plenty of time to jump in and CHOSE not to.

would it be less sad if he defending himself with a piece of fruit to the death? Is a banana a weak man's leveller.

Edit: Lyndon LaRouche activist, Linda Vu, did NOTHING.

A bowl of purple pansies just sat there and did NOTHING

"other witnesses" did NOTHING

and for the typical american haters who will make comments on Seattle's populace - Jim and Edith Welsh, tourists from Australia - did NOTHING

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Scoop 0]

I'm sorry but using a gun on an (assumed) unarmed man raises questions. Unless the man being attacked was 180 years old, suffering from brittle bone disease, 4' 10" of lsight build and never been in fight in his life it doesn't add up.

This doesn't condone the attackers actions, but, obviouslly, a firearm is a lethal use of force. I'm not so sure that an attack would require that level of repsonse else it would be reasonable for police to turn up to pub fights and shoot everyone involved

I can only guess that the guy was off his tits on drugs which would change things. I just wish for once we could have an unbiased report. A true account of what hapened as oppsed to a story with an agenda

[rehmwa 2]

You are right. He should have immediately sat down in the Purple Pansy Patch and just let the guy kill him - maybe during the attack talking about how nice digital watches are. It would have saved a lot of time, and maybe been therapeutic for the attacker - who would have seen the error of his ways.

Now we'll never know all because of those evil guns

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[micro 0]

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Cool story. Just unfortunate the guy died as a result of this. I wouldn't say that killing someone was justified, but he did what he had to to defend himself, I'm sure his intentions weren;t to take that guys life, just take out an agressor

I think if some guy..albeit a whack job shows up and tells me he is going to kill me and then starts wailing on me...I might just have to wail back.....and if that fails to show him the error of his ways.... I MIGHT just have to use my carry permit and ventilate the son of a bitch... thereby breaking one of gods commandments. That would be a hell of a lot of praying after that.. but at least I would be in a position to pray about it.

And as far as gut shooting an attacker... man that is harsh.. I have MUCH bettter shot placement than that.

There has been some credible biblical scholarship in the area of the comandment you reference that indicates the word "kill" there may actually mean "murder." And it certainly makes more sense there. I mean, it just doesn't fit anything else I believe about God to allow my wife and kids to be sluaghtered by some madman and to just stand back and not defend their lives for what? a commandment like that? It makes no sense to me.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[Scoop 0]

Dude, I didn't say guns are bad. I'm actually in favour of people carrying them if they are responsible. I feel public should be allowed them

From whats been written so far its a perfect example of why some people shouldnt be allowed guns as opposed to a success story... in my opinion.

I just feel this report is lacking in enough detail to ascertain whether it was justified. Also if you knew me you wouldn't label me part of the purple pansy patch. I put myself on the line all the time in the interest of public safety

[rehmwa 2]

No deal, I'm feeling out of line today, and you are handy, and the article has the guy sitting in purple pansies waiting for the cops. And Monte Python references are just perfect.

You just can't pass up material like that.

The alternative is this thread just goes on and sounds like all the others of this nature. (it went maybe 5 posts before the center of mass droning started, for gosh sake. Soon the REAL anti-gunners will be on the thread and then watch it fall to crap.)

Now that's a true crime.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

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There has been some credible biblical scholarship in the area of the comandment you reference that indicates the word "kill" there may actually mean "murder." And it certainly makes more sense there. I mean, it just doesn't fit anything else I believe about God to allow my wife and kids to be sluaghtered by some madman and to just stand back and not defend their lives for what? a commandment like that? It makes no sense to me.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, only offering an alternate perspective.

[devil's advocate]How are we ever to enjoy the gift of being able to forgive if we are never wronged?[/devil's advocate]

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Amazon 7]

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Dude, I didn't say guns are bad. I'm actually in favour of people carrying them if they are responsible. I feel public should be allowed them

From whats been written so far its a perfect example of why some people shouldnt be allowed guns as opposed to a success story... in my opinion.

BUT... it serves notice to similar scumbags as the attacker.. that you just NEVER know who the innocent little old man/lady is and what they are carrying when you try to attack them.

I am a FIRM believer in the Lazurus Long school of thought..... an ARMED society is a polite society.
Certainly in this country, having an overwhelming number of victims has not precluded the scumbags from knowing that on average the chances are that those whom they prey upon are NOT armed....Perhaps knowing that you stand a far better chance of getting some lead re-education... you might change your behavior before said -re-education is handed out.

[livetofall 0]

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And as far as gut shooting an attacker... man that is harsh.. I have MUCH bettter shot placement than that.

While rolling around on the ground being kicked by an attacker who is standing over you? Center mass seems like a good choice, especially when somewhere as public and populated as Westlake at lunchtime (not wanting to worry about strays).

Blues,
Dave

You have a VERY good point, all the way around. If someone is actually knowlegable ablout concealed weapons, to take the time and distance for a "better shot placement" that person would boubltfully be returning to their motel. I have a charter arms bulldog .44 special well known as a "belly gun". Simple fact is if you have the time to make a head or heart shot "YOUR LIFE" had a probabity of not being in immediate danger...therefore manslaughter/murder. that guy just saved alot of court time and fees by making a "harsh shot placement". again good point

www.911missinglinks.com the definitive truth of 9/11..the who and why, not how

You can handle the TRUTH www.theforbiddentruth.net

[micro 0]

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There has been some credible biblical scholarship in the area of the comandment you reference that indicates the word "kill" there may actually mean "murder." And it certainly makes more sense there. I mean, it just doesn't fit anything else I believe about God to allow my wife and kids to be sluaghtered by some madman and to just stand back and not defend their lives for what? a commandment like that? It makes no sense to me.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, only offering an alternate perspective.

[devil's advocate]How are we ever to enjoy the gift of being able to forgive if we are never wronged?[/devil's advocate]

I have the opportunity to forgive every day... from the shithead driver who cuts me off in traffic, to the mailman who INSISTS!! on folding my skydiving magazines in half before putting them into my mailbox, to my boss who makes inconsiderate decisions, to my spouse etc. etc. etc....

But when it comes to the life or death of innocent children? I wouldn't let them die just to enjoy the gift of forgiveness. Their life is worth more, much much more than being able to forgive a scum bag who would do them harm. We're talking about a huge difference in "goods" here.

I also look at it as an extension of my pro-life stance... I'm defending innocent life by being willing to take the life of a criminal who is trying to kill my loved ones. The souls/lives/well being of my children has been entrusted to me. I'm their protector. What rights does the criminal have to live while trying to take the lives of my innocent children? What would God say to me if I just let them perish w/o so much as raising my hand against such an assailant? HE has made his choices... my young children haven't had that chance yet to grow up, to live their lives, to determine their place in the world, to make a difference, etc? I won't be derilect in that task, what I consider a God-given obligation to protect them. Never.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[livetofall 0]

what you are replying to is just one decryption of the word. others originate it from to cause or to plan harm. We have all fallen short of that commandment. The business owner who takes his plant overseas to make an extra buck, putting thousands out of work has broken that commandment without lifting a weapon. He essentially has killed those families by bringing them to poverty over greed. I do not think there is a man among us who has not wished the worse upon a
certain person.
Back to topic, people in USA dont just have a simple drink fight shake hands like the old country. They kick and stomp after you hit the ground. The story is not quite clear, but having your head stomped on can cause death. This was clearly an assualt, not a barfight.

www.911missinglinks.com the definitive truth of 9/11..the who and why, not how

You can handle the TRUTH www.theforbiddentruth.net

[micro 0]

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what you are replying to is just one decryption of the word. others originate it from to cause or to plan harm. We have all fallen short of that commandment. The business owner who takes his plant overseas to make an extra buck, putting thousands out of work has broken that commandment without lifting a weapon. He essentially has killed those families by bringing them to poverty over greed. I do not think there is a man among us who has not wished the worse upon a
certain person.
.

I have to agree w/ you on this, esp. in light of Jesus' words about adultery... he raised the bar from engaging in the act to even entertaining the thought as being guilty of the sin. You make a very good point.

However, in light of this specific thread, how do you rate, vis a vis the idea of someone possibly breaking this particular commandment if it means defending their life or the lives of their loved ones?

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[jcd11235 0]

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I have the opportunity to forgive every day... from the shithead driver who cuts me off in traffic, to the mailman who INSISTS!! on folding my skydiving magazines in half before putting them into my mailbox, to my boss who makes inconsiderate decisions, to my spouse etc. etc. etc....

I hope you're joking, and don't really consider these wrongful offenses that need to be forgiven. If they are, I should probably begin forgiving God each night the sunset is not the most beautiful sunset I've ever seen.

There is a HUGE difference between being wronged, and things not going exactly how we would like them to, IMO.

Before we can truly forgive, we must be truly wronged. There is a reason Jesus wanted us to love our enemies. It's a gift to ourself as much as, if not more than a gift to our enemy.

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I also look at it as an extension of my pro-life stance... I'm defending innocent life by being willing to take the life of a criminal who is trying to kill my loved ones. The souls/lives/well being of my children has been entrusted to me. I'm their protector. What rights does the criminal have to live while trying to take the lives of my innocent children? What would God say to me if I just let them perish w/o so much as raising my hand against such an assailant?

In the eyes of Jesus, shouldn't the criminal would have the same right to life as your children? Wouldn't God/Jesus would be happy with you for turning the other cheek?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rehmwa 2]

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The business owner who takes his plant overseas to make an extra buck, putting thousands out of work has broken that commandment without lifting a weapon.

AND, let's not forget that same business owner that doesn't takes his plant overseas - thus keeping thousands out of work over there.

those bastards - those that move plants, AND those that don't

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I think if some guy..albeit a whack job shows up and tells me he is going to kill me and then starts wailing on me...I might just have to wail back.....and if that fails to show him the error of his ways.... I MIGHT just have to use my carry permit and ventilate the son of a bitch... thereby breaking one of gods commandments.

While popular, the King James translation is incorrect.

In the original Hebrew, the verb is "ratsach" which specifically means "to murder". Self defense and executing criminals are fine.

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I hope you're joking, and don't really consider these wrongful offenses that need to be forgiven. If they are, I should probably begin forgiving God each night the sunset is not the most beautiful sunset I've ever seen.

I wasn't really joking, but I was speaking tongue in cheek, and to quote GK Chesterton, I was "exagerating to make a point."

Again, there are plenty of times during life when we ARE truly wronged when we have the occasion to practice the virtue of forgiving others.

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In the eyes of Jesus, shouldn't the criminal would have the same right to life as your children? Wouldn't God/Jesus would be happy with you for turning the other cheek?

As far as the question of the criminal having the same right to life as my children, that's an interesting question... so if faced w/ the choice, which should I choose? The goblin has my daughter at gun point and I have a clear shot at him. If I don't shoot and kill HIM, he says he will kill her. What is the right thing to do?

The answer, IMO, goes to your second question, would Jesus/God be happy w/ me turning the other cheek. The passage you're referencing says that if someone slaps you on one cheek, turn and offer him the other. It doesn't say, if someone slaps your daughter's cheek, turn and offer him your daughter's other cheek.

I can chose to give MY life away at the hands of a criminal, in order to witness God's infinite love and in some way to shadow for him the sacrificial death of Jesus. Many saints have done this in the past. However, I do NOT have the right to offer up someone ELSE's life. I don't have such sovereignity of anyone else's life. My only choice is to protect those that God has blessed me with.

Now, I WOULD have the choice to practice the virtue of forgiveness if some goblin took the life or lives of those in my family and I wasn't there to defend them. Then, in that circumstance, it would be a very powerful and healing thing, for me and hopefully for the perp to forgive. And I hope that if I'm ever in that circumstance that I'm able to do that. I don't know that I'd be able to though.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[Richards 0]

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I'm sorry but using a gun on an (assumed) unarmed man raises questions. Unless the man being attacked was 180 years old, suffering from brittle bone disease, 4' 10" of lsight build and never been in fight in his life it doesn't add up.

By virtue of being put on the ground, he has demonstrated that he at a disadvantage to the other man. It may also be that the attack came as such a surprise that he was hurt early on and somewhat less able to effectively defend himself at that point. That, combined with the overwhelming fear he must have felt when attacked by a man threatenning to kill him may have left him feeling like lethal force was the only option. Timeliness was critical when he was attacked and he didn't have time to consult members of a discussion forum to debate the various options that may have been available to him.

Richards

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

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[livetofall 0]

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The business owner who takes his plant overseas to make an extra buck, putting thousands out of work has broken that commandment without lifting a weapon.

AND, let's not forget that same business owner that doesn't takes his plant overseas - thus keeping thousands out of work over there.

those bastards - those that move plants, AND those that don't

You write english very well for a third world occupant that used to be a farmer, to have a plant built where the toxic wastes run right into your backyard

www.911missinglinks.com the definitive truth of 9/11..the who and why, not how

You can handle the TRUTH www.theforbiddentruth.net