educational genocide-New English testing rule sets up immigrants to fail

[rickjump1 0]

Quote

Edison Language Academy in Santa Monica, CA does an amazing job with bilingual education. It's a charter school and a true bilingual immersion program, where they start out with English speakers and Spanish speakers split 50/50. By the end of sixth grade, all students are fluent in both languages.

Do you have charter schools in Santa Monica prepared to go 50/50 in Arabic or 50/50 in French,Fang, or other Bantu languages spoken in Gabon? Seems like back in the 70's all those Vietnamese, Cambodians, Hmong, and Lao survived English and moved on to higher professions. My flight surgeon is from Ghana and my orthopedic surgeon is from Vietnam. I can assure you these guys learned English because their parents knew it was essential in a country that spoke English.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[PLFXpert 0]

Quote

Given that the Principal quoted in the article says "it's equivalent to educational genocide", it would seem evident that those children who fail must be summarily put to death.

Of course it is always possible that the Principal simply has woefully a poor standard of English comprehension... which, given the subject of the article, would be rather ironic

I like you.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[2fat2fly 0]

Quote

The government have unrealistic expectations for the schools. There is simply NO EXCUSE to pass these on to the students. I expect more from educated adults.

What you are measured on drives your performance. Teachers make little enough already, you can't expect them to cut their own pay by bucking the system when it's so much less hassle to move the child through like they were mandated. If my wife ran in to the situation with one of her kids I'd tell her to move the little punk on up. My income shouldn't be negatively impacted because Johnny's crackhead mom doesn't effectively parent and prepare him for school. She wouldn't listen to me, but that's what I'd tell her.

I am not the man. But the man knows my name...and he's worried

[2fat2fly 0]

Quote

What the government is doing is the equivalent of sending a dentist a patient with poor dental hygene habits and a sugar addiction,.

That is the best analogy for the situation that I've ever heard. I'll be stealing it later this week for an argument that I'm planning

I am not the man. But the man knows my name...and he's worried

[lawrocket 3]

This doesn't respond to my post (I know now how plfxpert felt about my PETA posts).

Is this any excuse to demean and degrade children? Should your wife and other teachers take it out on kids? Should the poor kid with a crackhead mom face more torment from teachers and administrators?

Move him up? Why? So the teacher can get paid and the kid can be illiterate? Let someone else teach him?

I'll repeat - my problem is the psychological warfare committed on the children. Then, the use of the damaged esteems and psyches to show that the program doesn't work.

It's like the Rob Reiner South Park episode - get Cartman to talk about how sick he is from secondhand smoke (when he isn't), kill Cartman, and then blame the tobacco companies for killiing him. It doesn't excuse what the tobacco companies are doing, but destroying a child to make a point is a pretty lousy thing to do.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

You admit the pressure starts with the government,

Of course I admit that the pressure starts with the government. I'd be lying if I said I didn't, and glossing over important issues.

Quote

yet expect the teachers to relieve it? Absurd expectation.

I dunno. Perhaps I'm just old fashioned in my belief that educated adults should not be fucking passing on their goddamend pressures to children - especially those that are already operating at a disadvantage and are a captive audience to the pressures.

"Hey, class, you don't like the pressures we're putting on you to fund our raises? Well, then, go truant and end up in jail! That's your choice, kids. Better get used to being an adult! Actually, forget that. When you're an adult, you can take it out on kids, too - especially if you become a teacher."

I guess I expect more from adults. I've got pressures at work. I suppose I should tell my son that he shouldn't be eating as much as he is or growing so fast - food and clothes are expensive, you know.

Maybe we should all try to implement a new theory wherein adults pass all stresses and problems to children. Expect the children to keep the money coming in!!! Don't expect the adults to provide nurturing and caring! Don't expect the adults NOT to take it out on the kids.

Why, John, you are making such a fascinating argument.

And we wonder why kids have low self-esteem, bully other kids, commit mass murder, drop out...

We can't expect teachers not to take it out on kids? John, I truly hope that it's not what you meant. If it was, I'm simply horrified that anybody would find it acceptable for teachers to pass-it-on to the kids. I wouldn't tolerate that from my wife passing her pressures onto my son.

DELIBERATELY omitting my statement "Deal with the root of the problem, not the symptom" may be a good lawyerly trick, but doesn't help you make your point here. The root of the problem is the ill-considered, so-called "No Child Left Behind" law, not the teachers.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Nightingale 0]

He asked for an example of a structure of ELL that is effective. Edison Academy is only one of many. It stuck out in my mind because I visited there.

There are plenty of bilingual education and ELL classes that are effective. We just usually hear about the bad ones. Tossing a child in an english-only class is not effective, because they fall behind in their subjects while they are acquiring the English vocabulary. Tossing a child in a primary language-only class and expecting them to somehow learn English when it isn't being taught to them doesn't work either.

Bilingual education has proven to be more effective than English immersion when you look at fluency rates and comprehension. This is primarily because when reading and writing skills are strong, it translates from the primary language to the new language. When the language learning process is interrupted (for example, when someone immigrates in second grade and is told to drop the primary language completely and only use the secondary one now), what you often end up with is someone who can speak in both languages, but has very weak reading and writing skills in the secondary language, and virtually none in the primary language.

The philosophy that Edison Academy is structured around can translate into other environments. Children are taught strong reading and writing skills in their primary language, and then those skills cross over into the secondary language naturally. When you learn a new language and already know how to read, you don't have the problem of trying to learn a language and learn basic reading skills at the same time. Reading skills are reading skills, no matter what language you're reading. Edison's test scores are awful in kindergarten through third grade, because the kids are primarily learning in Spanish. However, Edison's sixth grade test scores are well above most other schools in the area, because the methodology they're using is effective, and because they're a charter school, they can continue doing what works regardless of the low scores the first few years, and they don't need to resort to the stopgap measures that raise test scores but don't accomplish anything else.

[lawrocket 3]

I did deliberately omit it. In my opinion, the root of the problem is a side issue. I recognized it's importance - I DELIBERATELY stated in my first sentence, "Of course I admit that the pressure starts with the government. I'd be lying if I said I didn't, and glossing over important issues."

I said, "Obviously, the system sets this up."

In the post to which you replied, I wrote, "While I disagree with the concept of punishing schools that do not assess well..." This was followed by, "The government is obviously pressuring the administrators. The administrators are obviously pressuring the teachers and students. And the teachers are obviously pressuring the students. And they have nobody to pressure. NOBODY should be pressuring kids to get them more money."

Does that not indicate my belief that pressure starts with the government? I said in the first post it is dumb what the government did. I will admit anew the pressure starts with the government.

However, you replied that it was absurd to expect that the teachers relieve the stressload from the children. I believe that it is an abomination to put your stressload on the children.

You think that the "root of the problem" is the government pressure. I think that it is indefensible for a teacher to put his or her pressure on a kid. To LIE to the kid about it being a pass/fail test istead of being what it is - an assessment.

The administrators and teachers have NO choice as to the system that the fall in. The students have NO choice but to take this test.

The teachers and administrators HAVE a choice as to whether they will emotionally burden the children with the consequences of this system. They CHOSE (were not required to - they CHOSE) to make the students believe that it is all on them. Not for the benefit of the children, but for their own benefit. The students are told it is a pass/fail test for them, when it is not.

The worst part is pointing to the emotional devastation of the kids that THEY could have prevented if THEY weren't so self-interested (and I understand self-interest) in order to say that the system needs to change.

Children should never be used as pawns. I see divorcing parents screwing up kids all the time so they can blame the other parent for it. It is not right.

Do you condone that, John?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Children should never be used as pawns. I see divorcing parents screwing up kids all the time so they can blame the other parent for it. It is not right.

Do you condone that, John?

Treating the symptom and not the cause of a disease is not good medicine.

I believe the same is true of laws. What we are seeing is a (possibly unintended) direct consequence of NCLB. If I were cynical, I might even believe it to be an intended consequence of NCLB.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

Treat the symptom AND the disease. Can we agree on that?

I'll compare it to this - assume lawrocket has just cut his wrists in an attempt to commit suicide. This is but a symptom of his problems. What do we do? Refer him for psychiatric assistance? Let's not put the cart before the horse, I think we should actually work to stop bleeding and save his life. Then, once that has happened, we should move on with psychiatric care.

Sometimes, the symptom needs more urgent and immediate care.

p.s. We're still friends, right?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rickjump1 0]

If you were talking about some private charter school for the affluent, I think it would be fine. If only Spanish speaking kids are eligible, you are asking the tax payers to pick up the tab for one select group; many of whom are here illegally. Sorry, I don't agree. This is part of the myth of "cheap labor". This is what happens when the "melting pot is replaced by "multiculturalism". We end up being bilingual for everybody.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[Nightingale 0]

I'd rather pick up the tab for educating children than for people on welfare who can't get a job because they weren't educated properly.

[rickjump1 0]

Ok. You win (for now).

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

You have teachers "scrambling to get hundreds more students ready for January's English Language Arts test for grades three to eight." So, they are "teching up" the test to get students to be able to pass it, instead of using it as a tool to track progress.

Obviously, it is the administrators who would face consequences of lack of funding if they do not do well on the tests. While I disagree with the concept of punishing schools that do not assess well (it leads to pencil-whipping), I do not think it appropriate for administrators and teachers to put pressures on the kids to ensure that they maximize their money flow. It is using the kids as pawns to say, "If you guys don't do well, then we all will suffer."

Obviously, the system sets this up, but it is the teachers and administrators alone who can relieve the pressure from the students - not the government.

The government is obviously pressuring the administrators. The administrators are obviously pressuring the teachers and students. And the teachers are obviously pressuring the students. And they have nobody to pressure. NOBODY should be pressuring kids to get them more money.

That's it in a nutshell... the teachers end up "teaching the test" and the kids suffer for it...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

the teachers end up "teaching the test" and the kids suffer for it...

Why is this statement so bad? It seems to state that tests of ALL KINDS are bad. My daughter is good at spelling. Seems the weekly spelling test she takes is driving her to learn to spell just fine. Ditto math, ditto everything else.

testing sets goals, expectations and drives performance for most of the personality types

What else should teacher's teach to if not the tests used to validate the learning?

If the issue is the content of the tests in NCLB, then let's see the actual tests and see if the content is something not worth teaching.

If the issue is the teachers are pissed because it's not THEIR tests. Then they should also be pissed off about the NEA and everyone else 'requiring' certain course content for funding.

but this is still getting away from rocket's excellent points about the teachers needing to be the grownups if they consider themselves stuck in a bad situation

as far as NCLB being bad or good, I don't know, can't until it runs awhile and we see the results and it struck me as a long term project - but if the current application of the concept is bad, I still don't see a problem with setting expectations and then proving it out and rewarding it when met. This applies with individuals and departments and companies and might even work with schools. How else to get a similar effect when we can't allow the free market to do the job naturally. It's kind of how the rest of the world operates outside of government.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mnealtx 0]

When the teachers basically spend a month going over the test and it's answers in class for a "test prep", then it's a problem.

This isn't anecdotal, btw... this was what happened at my daughter's old school...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[lawrocket 3]

I really do not see anythign wrong with "teaching to the test" per se - tests should cover what was taught. It's an inherent think. The only thing wrong with it is "cramming" - where the students do not practice to mastery, but instead regurgitate info.

My entire gripe in this thread was still about teachers putting undue burden and pressure on students. I stand by that.

Teachers SHOULD teach to the test, but not all tests should be "pass/fail." Plenty of tests are mere assessments and should not be mischaracterized as exit exams.

I hope this thread is not taken as me having a problem with teachers. I cite my teachers as the most profound influences on my developments, well, many of them. There are a few, however, that I thought were not up to snuff. When reading the article, the ones who mentioned the tremendous pressures on children are the ones I hold in disregard because they are pressures that do not need to be put on these kids.

On pass/fail tests, exit exams, etc., pressure away. But not on assessment tests.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[mnealtx 0]

I think we're talking circles around each other on this one, Jerry...

Take that vocabulary test mentioned up-thread. Instead of going over general spelling rules, the teacher would spend the last couple of weeks before the test doing NOTHING but going over the exact words on that vocabulary test, over and over...

See the difference??

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Nightingale 0]

When I was studying California's test a few years back, I found that the biggest problem is that the test required fact and concept regurgitation rather than application. When teachers teach to the test, the kids end up with a lot of information but no clue how to connect it or apply it.

The most important things schools can teach our children are critical thinking, logic skills, and research skills. None of that is tested.

Testing critical thinking and logic on a test is very expensive and time consuming, because multiple choice scantron is probably not the most effective way to test those skills. Scantron, however, is the cheapest and fastest.

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

Testing critical thinking and logic on a test is very expensive and time consuming, because multiple choice scantron is probably not the most effective way to test those skills. Scantron, however, is the cheapest and fastest.

The LSAT manages to do it just fine.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Nightingale 0]

True...

but that would require the government to take the time for someone to construct a well written test, and to spend money to pay for it. That was pretty much my point. Right now, they're trying to do things cheaply and quickly rather than doing them right.

Law schools can require LSAT because the future students pay for it.

[swedishcelt 0]

Quote

When I was studying California's test a few years back, I found that the biggest problem is that the test required fact and concept regurgitation rather than application. When teachers teach to the test, the kids end up with a lot of information but no clue how to connect it or apply it.

The most important things schools can teach our children are critical thinking, logic skills, and research skills. None of that is tested.

Testing critical thinking and logic on a test is very expensive and time consuming, because multiple choice scantron is probably not the most effective way to test those skills. Scantron, however, is the cheapest and fastest.

I agree with you one hundred percent on this. I try to do just that. However, every year there is the student who comes to me as a Sophomore or Junior age level, and by law, that is the grade the student is entered into because of age appropriateness. I end up teaching them English after school and teaching he or she to read and write. This can maybe take the student in question up from no English to a 3rd or 6th Grade reading level but by no means allows he or she to pass the state mandated assessment tests. In the state's eyes, I failed to do my job. Another of my students failed the test. I have never gotten a lot of grief because my other students usually do have a high ratio of passing test scores. However, what about the year I have a majority of those students? My job could very well be in danger.