educational genocide-New English testing rule sets up immigrants to fail

[swedishcelt 0]

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061001/NEWS02/610010319/1018

New English testing rule sets up immigrants to fail, teachers say--Educational genocide?

There is a new testing requirement affecting immigrant students; a policy will force students with limited English to take the same reading and writing exam as other children. Is this fair? Isn't this punishing the children for the immigration of their parents? It's punishing schools with low scores financially and not using the scores to help the students actually acquire the language.

[mnealtx 0]

I haven't read the link, but I do have a question:

How is holding these kids to a lower standard than everyone else helping them?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Frenchy68 0]

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How is holding these kids to a lower standard than everyone else helping them?

That's a legitimate question.
However, one of the issue raised in the article is whether a child who has been in the US say for 1 year can realistically be expected to perform as well as a child born and raised in the US.
Lowering all to the "lowest common denominator" is obviously not a viable option, so how to raise the level of newcomers without excluding them altogether from the educational system.
I don't think any country can afford to have a significant percentage of its population cast aside on grounds that have little to do with merit.
The question is how to integrate this population in a realistic way, that enables its members to get a fair chance at higher education, etc...
Me think.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[mnealtx 0]

That's a good point, and one I hadn't thought of...thanks for bringing it up!

What about the ESL classes? Anyone with direct experience as the effectiveness (or non-effectiveness, as the case may be) of them? Could implementing something like that (a remedial English class, perhaps?) prepare students adequately in a reasonable time?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Frenchy68 0]

I do not know the specifics of any of the programs, but the issue seems to be with schools with heavy immigrant population. I think it would make sense to have certain schools (or classes) with specific and realistic curriculum(s), target driven, so as to incorporate students facing specific needs (such as language issues, etc...) and bring them up to a certain level that allows them to integrate the education system and then overall society on an even foot.
Doing so, however, does raise the issue of "special classes", etc... which is never a very popular issue, as it does raise costs. But in the long term, I wonder how more of a price we pay by ignoring the problem. I also believe society would have a lot more to gain from having better educated people (whom, in a whole, tend to have higher earning income jobs, therefore higher tax brackets) in the long term, even if such project may have a short term cost increase.
Not a very popular stance on a political platform though...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Lindsey 0]

Do you know what the implications are for a child who fails the exam? Does it mean that the child will fail a grade? Does it put the child in a track for tutoring? The article doesn't speak to this at all. While the exam may not be good for some kids' self-esteem, it may set the bar a little higher while doing no damage to children educationally....depending upon how the results are used.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[mr2mk1g 10]

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Do you know what the implications are for a child who fails the exam?

Given that the Principal quoted in the article says "it's equivalent to educational genocide", it would seem evident that those children who fail must be summarily put to death.

Of course it is always possible that the Principal simply has woefully a poor standard of English comprehension... which, given the subject of the article, would be rather ironic.

[rehmwa 2]

I think it depends on the kids and their parents. There are a ton of kids born and raised in the US that would do worse than most kids of immigrants in my neighborhood who have english as their 2nd language.

I think setting strong expectations for all the kids is a good thing - Provided the opportunity to learn enough to meet those expectations is in place in the educational program. That would then put the responsibility on the kids and their families to learn what is offered. (but it has to be offered, doesn't it?)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NCclimber 0]

I think part of the problem is how we have been handling immigrant students (and immigrants in general) for the last 15-20 years. There are numerous government edicts (sorry for the strong term) requiring schools, government agencies and private businesses to accommodate people who don't speak English. Spanish drivers license exams. Doctors (who recieve medicare payments) are required to provide translators for any and everyone.

This is a political football that was far to the left. This example is a case of it swinging too far to the right.

[2fat2fly 0]

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"it's equivalent to educational genocide", it would seem evident that those children who fail must be summarily put to death.

Just my opinion
The local educators are worried not because of the damage to the children from failing one test, but because with the way that "No child left behind" is set up they are giving a test that the average score is going to be very low and that will cost them federal funds.
If they would use the test to direct students to appropriate courses and available assistance, it's a great idea.

I am not the man. But the man knows my name...and he's worried

[rehmwa 2]

They lose the money if they fail to prepare the students for the test. Isn't that the purpose behind the tests? To tie the money to teaching results?

That could be one response.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,623]

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They lose the money if they fail to prepare the students for the test. Isn't that the purpose behind the tests? To tie the money to teaching results?

That could be one response.

It could be, but you are plenty smart enough to discern the real reason for NCLB.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[juanesky 0]

Lo siento, no hablo ingles

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Scoop 0]

Have I misunderstood this or are they saying its outrageous that foreign children should be expected to take the same language skills test?

I'm sorry but if I moved to Russia tomorrow and went to a Russian literature class, I'd expect to be behind everyone else.

Tough shit, chin up and get on with things instead of bitching about how things are too difficult. Fuck their self esteem, if they are shit at reading, its fairer they know they are below par and can take extra tuition or whatever.

[kelpdiver 2]

my high school district made some sort of guarantee to local commerce that its graduates would have a minimum set of working skills. Someone that can't understand English well enough to pass a multiple choice test is unlikely to meet that requirement.

Yes, it would be rough for a 17 yo to show up and learn English in one year. Well, that person shouldn't be getting a high school diploma here, not after one year.

[kallend 1,623]

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Have I misunderstood this or are they saying its outrageous that foreign children should be expected to take the same language skills test?

I'm sorry but if I moved to Russia tomorrow and went to a Russian literature class, I'd expect to be behind everyone else.

.

But what if that Russian school lost government funding because you had moved there and were tested and found to be behind in your Russian skills?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

I think one quote in the article really hit on a subject that these educators CAN have an immediate and drastic effect upon:

Quote

[Dave] Fried [the district's assistant superintendent of curriculum and instruction] said he worries most about how to prepare students psychologically for the English Language Arts test.

"The last thing we want is for young people — who are working real hard to learn English — to be hit with an assessment and to get the message that we expect them to be able to perform well on this and feel like failures when they can't," he said.

If the administrators are telling kids that an "assessment" is a "pass/fail" test, then the educators themselves are failing dramatically.

The article said, "Under the federal No Child Left Behind Act, schools must give a battery of standard tests and track the performance of certain groups, including those with little English."

From the article, it also said, "To prepare for the ELA exam, teachers will have to focus more on Spanish language arts, O'Donovan said. But some educators said they don't want to remodel their curriculum for a test that serves no purpose."

So, according to what the article itself said, we have teachers and administrators telling kids that they have to pass an "assessment test." You have teachers and administrators, who should be saying, "we are using this test to track your progress and see what else we can do to make it better" into a pass/fail test that is "catastrophic for the self-esteem of a child who has to sit and endure a test like this."

You have teachers "scrambling to get hundreds more students ready for January's English Language Arts test for grades three to eight." So, they are "teching up" the test to get students to be able to pass it, instead of using it as a tool to track progress.

The teachers themselves can tell the kids, "This is not a pass/fail test. We want to see what you know and what you don't. This test will help us know with what we should be spending more time. Just do what you can - you face no penalty for passing or failing." Instantly, you have taken care of the issue of student self-esteem.

Obviously, it is the administrators who would face consequences of lack of funding if they do not do well on the tests. While I disagree with the concept of punishing schools that do not assess well (it leads to pencil-whipping), I do not think it appropriate for administrators and teachers to put pressures on the kids to ensure that they maximize their money flow. It is using the kids as pawns to say, "If you guys don't do well, then we all will suffer."

Obviously, the system sets this up, but it is the teachers and administrators alone who can relieve the pressure from the students - not the government.

The government is obviously pressuring the administrators. The administrators are obviously pressuring the teachers and students. And the teachers are obviously pressuring the students. And they have nobody to pressure. NOBODY should be pressuring kids to get them more money.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Obviously, the system sets this up, but it is the teachers and administrators alone who can relieve the pressure from the students - not the government.

The government is obviously pressuring the administrators. The administrators are obviously pressuring the teachers and students. And the teachers are obviously pressuring the students. And they have nobody to pressure. NOBODY should be pressuring kids to get them more money.

You admit the pressure starts with the government, yet expect the teachers to relieve it?

Absurd expectation. Deal with the root of the problem, not the symptom.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Nightingale 0]

If they're testing English language skills, they should test in English.

However, if they're testing math, they need to be certain that math is what they're testing.

Example: If I gave you a math test with word problems written out in Swedish, I wouldn't be testing your knowledge of math; I'd be testing your knowledge of Swedish, because even if you do know how to do the math, you don't know what you're supposed to do because you don't understand the directions. If it's a science test, you may be able to explain Cell Theory very well, but if you can't do it in Swedish, the result will be the same as if you didn't understand Cell Theory at all. You do know Cell Theory. You just don't know how to tell me about it in Swedish.

If they're going to test ELL kids, they need to be very careful about the tests. If done improperly, the tests will not accurately reflect the non-language related skills of the students, or the math/science/history scores of the school will be artificially lowered.

[2fat2fly 0]

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They lose the money if they fail to prepare the students for the test. .

That's the intent, the reality is more "Pump Up The Volume" (obscure movie ref) where the administrators try to avoid having children that will score low and no matter how much people don't want to admit it, certain socioeconomic groups are going to come in under the curve. We face that here in the rural south-a lot these kids don't get the reinforcement from home that education is important and it shows in their classroom performance.

I am not the man. But the man knows my name...and he's worried

[Nightingale 0]

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That's a good point, and one I hadn't thought of...thanks for bringing it up!

What about the ESL classes? Anyone with direct experience as the effectiveness (or non-effectiveness, as the case may be) of them? Could implementing something like that (a remedial English class, perhaps?) prepare students adequately in a reasonable time?

Edison Language Academy in Santa Monica, CA does an amazing job with bilingual education. It's a charter school and a true bilingual immersion program, where they start out with English speakers and Spanish speakers split 50/50. By the end of sixth grade, all students are fluent in both languages.

[lawrocket 3]

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You admit the pressure starts with the government,

Of course I admit that the pressure starts with the government. I'd be lying if I said I didn't, and glossing over important issues.

Quote

yet expect the teachers to relieve it? Absurd expectation.

I dunno. Perhaps I'm just old fashioned in my belief that educated adults should not be fucking passing on their goddamend pressures to children - especially those that are already operating at a disadvantage and are a captive audience to the pressures.

"Hey, class, you don't like the pressures we're putting on you to fund our raises? Well, then, go truant and end up in jail! That's your choice, kids. Better get used to being an adult! Actually, forget that. When you're an adult, you can take it out on kids, too - especially if you become a teacher."

I guess I expect more from adults. I've got pressures at work. I suppose I should tell my son that he shouldn't be eating as much as he is or growing so fast - food and clothes are expensive, you know.

Maybe we should all try to implement a new theory wherein adults pass all stresses and problems to children. Expect the children to keep the money coming in!!! Don't expect the adults to provide nurturing and caring! Don't expect the adults NOT to take it out on the kids.

Why, John, you are making such a fascinating argument.

And we wonder why kids have low self-esteem, bully other kids, commit mass murder, drop out...

We can't expect teachers not to take it out on kids? John, I truly hope that it's not what you meant. If it was, I'm simply horrified that anybody would find it acceptable for teachers to pass-it-on to the kids. I wouldn't tolerate that from my wife passing her pressures onto my son.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rehmwa 2]

This is a good post, and it also illuminates some things that I won't post. I really don't feel like getting flamed.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Nightingale 0]

What the government is doing is the equivalent of sending a dentist a patient with poor dental hygene habits and a sugar addiction, and then blaming the dentist because the patient has cavities. The dentist should have a responsibility to provide dental care and advice to the best of his ability within the circumstances, but he shouldn't have the issue of the government blaming him for the patient not having perfect teeth after only a year of dental care. Just like dentists, teachers have to work with what they're given. However, unlike dentists, teachers can't reject anyone with a history that is detrimental to the teacher's success rates.

[lawrocket 3]

I understand this totally, Kris. But, that dentist also is not expected to simply pull all the teeth out of the patients because the government tallies his success rate on a decreased number of cavities filled. Doing so will give him a great success rate, and he'll reap the reward and ultimate goal of increased funding. It also means that the patients no longer have teeth and therefore cannot eat a lot of things, but he met the standards, right?

Opps! The dentist was caught pulling all the teeth. The dentist will blame for the government for its ill-considered policy. He would argue that it is the policy's fault that all of his patients feel low self esteem, because he had to pull their teeth out to make the program work and ensure funding to help others (by pulling all of their teeth).

---

My issue, Kris, is not with the workings of the LNCB. I think that plenty of it is stupid and ill-conceived.

My problem is that the teachers are appealing to the government and the public on the basis of the ravages of self-esteem through unrealistic expectations. These self-esteem issues are the result of the TEACHERS - NOT THE GOVERNMENT - putting unrealistic expectations on the CHILD STUDENTS by counting on THE KIDS to make them money for school funding, instead of using the tests FOR ASSESSMENT PURPOSES.

The tests are not pass/fail for the students. They are pass/fail for the schools. The schools are telling the students that they are pass/fail for the students. The schools are blaming THE STUDENTS and making them feel bad.

This is wrong. The teachers should be a wall between the students and the administration.

The government have unrealistic expectations for the schools. There is simply NO EXCUSE to pass these on to the students. I expect more from educated adults.

My wife is hotter than your wife.