How can we make our schools safe?

[flyangel2 2]

Well sorry it's taken me so long to come back and reply to the thread I started.

Billy, your idea is what I was thinking. I remember when my boys were in elementary school. The only doors that you could enter the building through were the front doors. But there was never any one standing there to see who was coming in.

Once the boys were in High School, it was easier to just walk into the school.

I think giving the teachers guns is a bad idea. What if a student were to take that gun from the teacher? Also most teachers don't know how to handle a guy. When I taught years ago, I would not want to be responsible having a gun and being told to defend my classroom.

Funding for having some one be at the front door will have to come from taxes Or else the school districts need to live with a better budget.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Lindsey 0]

my child's school has someone at the front door already, and the side doors are only unlocked from the inside. I figured that was kinda standard.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[mnealtx 0]

Hi Mar -

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I think giving the teachers guns is a bad idea.

Not giving... allowing trained staff to carry concealed.

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What if a student were to take that gun from the teacher?

If it's that easy for the student to take the gun away from the teacher, don't you think the teacher would be able to take it right back?

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Also most teachers don't know how to handle a guy. When I taught years ago, I would not want to be responsible having a gun and being told to defend my classroom.

Guy, or gun?? I'm not talking about FORCING staff to be armed.. but allowing the ones that HAVE gone through the time, trouble and training to carry concealed to carry their weapon on-campus.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[dontiego 0]

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guns...regulating their use could help.

Darn right. We need more laws controlling who can have 'em, where you can shoot 'em, what type you can own, and so on. We've already got 20,000 gun regulation laws on the books, but I'm sure just a few more are all we need to finally make this strategy effective. Just think of the poor children!

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If only people who need it have one, and lock them well when not in use, well it's harder for this kid to achieve his video-game bloodbath.

Yes! Government bureaucrats should get to determine who "needs" a firearm, and for everyone else - tough! And there should be random home inspections of anyone who is an approved gun owner, to make sure their guns are locked up. Now we're talking! Penalty for an unlocked gun: 10 years in prison.

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Someone who liked the theory of Michael Moore in "Bowling for Columbine" Culture of terror, everybody is afraid of everybody... so everybody is more likely to shoot at sight...

Absolutely, and Michael Moore is a highly acclaimed producer of documentaries, so we should listen to what he has to say and heed his advice.

I like your ideas!

And I like the not-at-all aggressive way you put it.

As I said earlier, living in europe I have never seen a gun, besides in some cops' hands, and in the military guys' hand after terror attacks (paris and madrid's subway, london's buses...).

As a coincidence, I haven't heard too much of school massacres in europe (you might say it's because the european information channels are less performant).
Do you really think it IS a coincidence?

Do you think the situation is better in the US, where so many own guns?
If not, how would you get the situation to be better?
Not by law, apparently, and I can understand that. What then?
Educating people? Good luck, might work.

As it comes to M.Moore, you don't seems to like him too much as a documentary producer. How about his point about culture of terror? Why do you think it is bullshit, as your sarcasms seem to mean?

"We call on the common man to rise up in revolt against this evil of typographical ignorance."
http://bancomicsans.com

[pirana 0]

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The statistics meant a bit more than a fallacy based on an emotional appeal and actually prove that much of our fear of violence is a reaction to media coverage.

Akin to the skydiving incidents discussions where, because of certain safety/training measures, incidents due to a specific reason decrease, the same could be said for school violence. Not the best analogy, no, but then again, we eventually want to look at past incidents (school and/or skydiving, your choice) and try to learn from them--especially when what has changed in the past seems to work.

I don't think the analogy is at all valid. Skydiving deaths are for the most part self-induced during skydiving. If kids died from from making mistakes in algebra, or if someone showed up at a DZ and started picking off skydivers in freefall with a rifle - then there might be an analogy.

The other problem I have with the stats are that they only count fatalities. As if being shot and surviving is OK. Or getting raped doesn't count. Or getting stabbed, or even just getting the shit stomped out of you doesn't matter. Don't know what those stats are, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that violent crimes in schools have risen dramatically.

Another one late last week right here in WI. Principal murdered. But you know, one principal is just an anecdote and a statistical anomaly. Nothing to worry about if you weren't him.

I'll do a little quick search on violence in schools and see what comes up. I definitely remember a time when stuff like this was virtually non-existent. They all made the news, just like today, and I don't remember hearing about them several times per year.

BTW, what was my fallacy? And what is wrong with an emotional appeal?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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One way would be to lock all exterior doors from the outside except the main entrance, and have a guard at the main entrance. If they can't get a guard, then have some kind of double entrance foyer where sensors can tell if the person is packing and lock the interior doors before he can get inside...

Now where would the funding come from to pay for that...

From the money saved on counseling, lawsuits, and all the other off-the-wall cover-their-ass type positions they now have. I was looking at my kids Handbook and the number of non-teaching specialty counselors and advice givers is ridiculous. I went to a school of many hundreds per gradualting class. We had 1 pricipal and 1 vice or assistant principal. I think the Middle School and High School in our district have one for each graduating class. Also, their "couselor" ratio is about 4 times as high as ours was.

Maybe we should hire a consultant to commission a study to research the feasibility of getting a grant to find out why kids need so much counseling these days.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[kallend 1,623]

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One way would be to lock all exterior doors from the outside except the main entrance, and have a guard at the main entrance. If they can't get a guard, then have some kind of double entrance foyer where sensors can tell if the person is packing and lock the interior doors before he can get inside...

Now where would the funding come from to pay for that...

From the money saved on counseling, lawsuits, and all the other off-the-wall cover-their-ass type positions they now have. I was looking at my kids Handbook and the number of non-teaching specialty counselors and advice givers is ridiculous. I went to a school of many hundreds per gradualting class. We had 1 pricipal and 1 vice or assistant principal. I think the Middle School and High School in our district have one for each graduating class. Also, their "couselor" ratio is about 4 times as high as ours was.

Maybe we should hire a consultant to commission a study to research the feasibility of getting a grant to find out why kids need so much counseling these days.

You forgot to add an absolute prohibition on field trips to art museums.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skydiver30960 0]

My thoughts are more along kid vs. kid violence rather than the random person vs. kid violence mentioned in the article.

We are not going to solve these problems; the best thing we can do is try to help the kids solve these problems for themselves. We need to help the kids find ways to get around these needs for violence before it gets too great for them to control.

In Social Studies, spend a little less time talking about the Louisiana Purchase and a bit more learning about the modern-day stresses on adolescents and how they can deal with it. Show kids how they can help each other without being percieved as "tattling" to Da Man.

Make sure schools quit cutting (and bring back, if already lost) the "fluff" subjects like Music, Theater, and Art. In the past, these classes were routes of expression and pressure release for children, now they're gone.

Bring back gym class and recess. Kids are kids, they have TONS of energy and need an outlet for it. I know there's a pecking order in these classes and on the schoolground, but I'd rather my kid got a bloody nose from a Dodgeball game than a bloody stump from a hollowpoint .45.

There will always be violence at schools. Lets face it: being a teenager sucks, we were all there once. You're expected to act like an adult, but aren't given the liberties of an adult. Kids are busy feeling out the balance between their instincts and their social upbringing. We were all there, all felt the stress. The reason those of you on this board aren't dead or in jail is that you found more healthy ways of dealing with the stress. These are the methods we need to pass down.

Sorry, I don't think home schooling is the answer.

Sorry, I don't think gun control is the answer.

Sorry, I don't think kid control (aka lockdown) is the answer.


Elvisio "mostly, I just masturbated a lot and wrote bad poetry" Rodriguez

[pirana 0]

(Just hitting reply cuz it's the last post).

I heard on the radio the Amish have now gotten in on the action, putting themselves on the scoreboard with a school shooting in PA.

They're back, dressed in black, and not gonna take it anymore.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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We have about 5 million students in each grade, in this country. I'm guessing anyone who isn't butting heads with their school's thug has less than a 1 in a million chance of getting shot in school.

Ain't the media grand. Exploit the emotions. Ignore the statistical realities.

Anyone know how many schools killings (like this) we've had since Columbine?

You are off by one full order of magnitude.

Odds of a person dying a violent death at school sometime before their graduation are 1 in 107,000. So, in a school with a graduating class of 200, it will happen once every 535 years. Not much consolation though. We could put it on their gravestone though "Sorry, you were just very unlucky"

Not bad compared to other activities. But appaling when you consider IT IS SCHOOL!!!!!!! I hear peole saying "It's safer than riding in a car." No fucking shit, and I shoud hope so!

BTW, that 1 in 107,000 is for all schools. Urban schools are far more dangerous at 1 in 12,000.

Isn't the skydiving fatality rate in this country about 1 in 100K? (Based on about 20 to 30 deaths and about 3 million skydives). Not that the 2 compare, just a coincidence.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[freeflybella 0]

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Home Schooling, much safer.

Since no one else did, I'll second this.

The public school system as an institution took a horrible turn somewhere down the line. Maybe it's the fault of overcrowding? Maybe it's No Child Left Behind? Maybe it's one fucking month of maternity leave for moms, maybe it's both parents in the workforce too early...Who knows when it happened.

But homeschooling looks better and better.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[micro 0]

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Home Schooling, much safer.

Since no one else did, I'll second this.

The public school system as an institution took a horrible turn somewhere down the line. Maybe it's the fault of overcrowding? Maybe it's No Child Left Behind? Maybe it's one fucking month of maternity leave for moms, maybe it's both parents in the workforce too early...Who knows when it happened.

But homeschooling looks better and better.

I wasn't sure if the original poster who said that about homeschooling was serious or was saying that sarcastically, but some of you know we homeschool, although not primarily for safety's sake. however, it IS a nice fringe benefit. we will NEVER have to worry about shootings or stabbings or any of that nonsense.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[JohnRich 4]

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I haven't heard too much of school massacres in europe .Do you really think it IS a coincidence? Do you think the situation is better in the US, where so many own guns?

By gosh, I think you're on to something. Less guns = less shootings! Yes, by all means, America should adopt the laws and ways of Europe!

In fact, North Korea has fewer school shootings than any other nation on earth. Therefore, every nation should immediately convert their form of government to that of a tyrannical dictatorship. That would solve this problem of school shootings once and for all.

Do it for the children!

[dorbie 0]

You've lept over the question "Are our kids safe at school?" making the assumption that they are unsafe and if you're prepared to do that based on perception then you will never meet your own standard of safety. There is nothing you can do to make your kids safe by your implied definition. In the mean time the additional harm done to kids by "zero tollerance" for little benefit is completely ignored because most folks assume that kind of crap could never happen to their kids.

[dorbie 0]

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Home Schooling, much safer.

Since no one else did, I'll second this.

The public school system as an institution took a horrible turn somewhere down the line. Maybe it's the fault of overcrowding? Maybe it's No Child Left Behind? Maybe it's one fucking month of maternity leave for moms, maybe it's both parents in the workforce too early...Who knows when it happened.

But homeschooling looks better and better.

I wasn't sure if the original poster who said that about homeschooling was serious or was saying that sarcastically, but some of you know we homeschool, although not primarily for safety's sake. however, it IS a nice fringe benefit. we will NEVER have to worry about shootings or stabbings or any of that nonsense.

How do you know you're not at greater risk at home from shootings & stabbings?

[micro 0]

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Home Schooling, much safer.

Since no one else did, I'll second this.

The public school system as an institution took a horrible turn somewhere down the line. Maybe it's the fault of overcrowding? Maybe it's No Child Left Behind? Maybe it's one fucking month of maternity leave for moms, maybe it's both parents in the workforce too early...Who knows when it happened.

But homeschooling looks better and better.

I wasn't sure if the original poster who said that about homeschooling was serious or was saying that sarcastically, but some of you know we homeschool, although not primarily for safety's sake. however, it IS a nice fringe benefit. we will NEVER have to worry about shootings or stabbings or any of that nonsense.

How do you know you're not at greater risk at home from shootings & stabbings?

Our children are not at risk from school shootings or stabbings, which is the topic being discussed.

We live in a very rural area. There is very little crime here. The murder/shooting/stabbing rate here is virtually nonexistant. I work from home. We have a large German Sheppard. I'm armed.

I don't worry about there being any shootings or stabbings of my kids, my wife or me in this home.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[rehmwa 2]

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Our children are not at risk from school shootings or stabbings, which is the topic being discussed.

then we could completely eliminate 'school shootings' by moving all classes to taverns.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[micro 0]

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Our children are not at risk from school shootings or stabbings, which is the topic being discussed.

then we could completely eliminate 'school shootings' by moving all classes to taverns.

way to get the point there buddy!

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[billvon 2,394]

>then we could completely eliminate 'school shootings' by moving all classes to taverns.

I took two years of creative writing classes in a bar at MIT. There were no shootings of any sort. Therefore you are 100% correct.

[JohnRich 4]

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Do you think the situation is better in the US, where so many own guns? If not, how would you get the situation to be better?

You're on to something here. Yes, we should finally come to the realization that since some people can't be trusted with guns, therefore all guns should be banned from all people. Yes, I know that's a little drastic, but it can't be helped. There's no way to tell if someone who is responsible today, won't go off the deep end tomorrow. I know some people will object that they're not the problem, but how do we know they won't be later? And some people will whine about how everyone, even responsible people, are being treated like criminals. But they should suck it up and take it for the overall good of society. Anyway, therefore, we can only conclude that no one should be trusted with a gun, and so all guns should be banned outright. There, problem solved!

And while we're at it. Let's use this same philosophy on other cultural causes of mass mayhem. Take alcohol, for example. Alcohol kills more people than guns. And like guns, we have no way of knowing that the guy walking out of the store with a case of beer this afternoon, won't be a drunk driver running over a little girl a few hours later, while she walks her puppy across the street to play in the park. Therefore, no one should be trusted with alcohol, period. Alcohol should be banned outright. Bring back Prohibition!

Do it for little girls and puppy dogs.

[pirana 0]

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Our children are not at risk from school shootings or stabbings, which is the topic being discussed.

then we could completely eliminate 'school shootings' by moving all classes to taverns.

You know, in Wisconsin saying something like that could get you elected.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[JohnRich 4]

After 9/11, a discussion ensued about arming airline pilots as a final safeguard against terrorists taking over the cockpit. It took much hand-wringing to get past the bullshit myths about gunfire in a pressurized airplane. But in the end, a program was implemented whereby pilots who volunteer for the program can receive special training and carry a gun in the cockpit. No one is forced to do it against their will - it's only for those who voluntarily choose to do it. The idea that random aircraft contain armed pilots ready to kill any hijacker, serves as a deterrent against hijackers exerting their will on any airplane.

Now, imagine the same kind of program for schoolteachers. Those who volunteer, could be specially trained to keep a handgun in a secure lockbox in their classrooms. Again, there will be all kinds of cries of how this is such a horrible idea, and children will be killed by accident. But once you get past those myths, then you'll come out with more secure schools. When gunfire erupts, these teachers would respond similar to a fire drill, and the armed attackers will face return fire from multiple defenders. This will at least detract them from their murderous child-killing, allowing kids to escape with their lives. And quite possibly it will end such killing sprees early, minimizing casualties. Best of all, it will be a deterrent against such attacks ever happening in the first place, because deranged gunmen will realize that they are no longer free to wreak their havoc unchallenged.