Popes comments on Islam

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

First, Christian based religions do not have "clerics" per se.

Second, the evangelist who said that later retracted and fully apologized for his comments.

Third, even when he said it, he was not amassing a huge crowd, inciting a riot, the burning of flags, or burning of people in effigy.

I'm not saying he was wrong, I am saying your comparison is tenuous, at best. At worst, it doesn't even amount to "apples-to-oranges".

Quite right! It was a crappy. worthless comparison, in my opinion. I'm not a fan of such comparisons, especially when they are so crappy.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Andy9o8 0]

>>First, Christian based religions do not have "clerics" per se.

It's a correct generic label. Christians have priests, monks & ministers/vicars; Buddhists have priests & monks; Jews have rabbis; Muslims have imams. Generically, all "clerics".

>>Second, the evangelist who said that later retracted and fully apologized for his comments.

Pfft! Crocodile tears.

>>Third, even when he said it, he was not amassing a huge crowd, inciting a riot, the burning of flags, or burning of people in effigy.

He was speaking to a television audience of what - hundreds of thousands? millions? - the opinions and actions of whom he most definitely uses that medium to influence.

>>I'm not saying he was wrong, I am saying [Bill's] comparison is tenuous, at best.

I think it's apt. IMO.

[micro 0]

Quote

>>First, Christian based religions do not have "clerics" per se.

It's a correct generic label. Christians have priests, monks & ministers/vicars; Buddhists have priests & monks; Jews have rabbis; Muslims have imams. Generically, all "clerics".

>>Second, the evangelist who said that later retracted and fully apologized for his comments.

Pfft! Crocodile tears.

>>Third, even when he said it, he was not amassing a huge crowd, inciting a riot, the burning of flags, or burning of people in effigy.

He was speaking to a television audience of what - hundreds of thousands? millions? - the opinions and actions of whom he most definitely uses that medium to influence.

>>I'm not saying he was wrong, I am saying [Bill's] comparison is tenuous, at best.

I think it's apt. IMO.

Pat Roberston is a quackie man, but c'mon... the mordern day Christian is NOT same as the witch-burning zealot or the priest leading the Spanish Inquisition, nor are they the extremist Muslim you see gunning down a nun or burning the Pope in effigy.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[billvon 2,394]

>Would be more fair if you either compared followers of Islam with
> followers of Christ or even better, followers of extremist muslims
> with followers of extremist Christians.

I agree, and that's the point that often gets lost. Most of Mark Harju's posts are along the lines of "look at this riot; see? All Muslims are violent."* That's an example of muslim extremists, NOT mainstream islam.

Likewise, Pat Roberts is an extremist, and most christians do NOT want other leaders assassinated. He does not represent mainstream christianity. It's a bit scary that he has such a massive following, given his extreme views, but his views do not equal all christian's views.


(* = Mark's post are just an example; it's a pretty common sentiment, unfortunately.)

[sundevil777 93]

If some Christian facists in the US commit some act such as bombing an abortion clinic or assasinating an abortion doctor, they are vigorously prosecuted and severely punished. The same cannot be said of how many countries deal with Islamic facists.

HUGE difference, I think.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,394]

>If some Christian facists in the US commit some act such as
>bombing an abortion clinic or assasinating an abortion doctor, they
>are vigorously prosecuted and severely punished.

Hmm. Several US contractors have been implicated in the torture and deaths of Iraqi civilians held in US prisons over there. I look forward to their vigorous prosecution and punishment. Perhaps it will happen soon.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

the mordern day Christian is NOT same as the witch-burning zealot or the priest leading the Spanish Inquisition, nor are they the extremist Muslim you see gunning down a nun or burning the Pope in effigy.

The extremist Muslim gunning down a nun or burning the Pope in effigy is no more the average modern-day Muslim than the extremist Christian gunning down a fellow Christian in Northern Ireland is the average modern-day Christian. The average, run-of-the-mill Muslim wants to concentrate on simply living his life, raising his children, spoiling his grandchildren and quietly growing old with his wife just as much as the average run-of-the-mill Christian, Jew, Buddhist and Hindu does.

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

>If some Christian facists in the US commit some act such as
>bombing an abortion clinic or assasinating an abortion doctor, they
>are vigorously prosecuted and severely punished.

Hmm. Several US contractors have been implicated in the torture and deaths of Iraqi civilians held in US prisons over there. I look forward to their vigorous prosecution and punishment. Perhaps it will happen soon.

Have been implicated...so, are you implying that there is some conspiracy to not investigate or cover it up? Soldiers have been convicted for such crimes, why would civilians be given a pass? How will you know when to be satisfied that it has been investigated properly if charges are not filed?

Sounds to me like you're assuming that any decision to not prosecute is an automatic sign of corruption/consipiracy.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Shawndiver 0]

My question is:

As you say, Roberts is an extremist with thousands of followers. However, his views do not reflect the majority of christians out there. But when he made his Chavez statements, his was quickly vilified by everyone from senior government to ordinary citizens, and those views were immediately and loudly made known. I do not remember hearing any information about any other extremist christians having so much as a backyard barbeque to call for Chavez's head in support of Roberts.

Now assuming the same about Islam. There are extremists out there, but the vast majority of them are peace loving people. However, when the extremists in this religion speak, it seems just the opposite of the above example. Thousands calling for death and destruction, not a peep from the peace loving side.

To the posters out there saying there are extremists on both sides, can you please explain the differences in reaction between the two? And we are talking cultures as they exist today, not going back for examples to medival times. Thanks!

_________________

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

Right. And one of OUR extremist clerics has called for Hugo Chavez to be assassinated. There are nuts on all sides.

First, Christian based religions do not have "clerics" per se.

.

Cleric - A person who has been legitimately received into the ranks of the clergy. (From The Catholic Encyclopedia)

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[stoneycase 0]

there are moderates in everything. what we can hear is often a product of what we choose to hear.

have you seen or read anything about this: http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailheadlines.asp?fileid=20060919.@01&irec=0

Nadhlatul Ulama chairman Hasyim Muzadi called on Indonesian Muslims on Monday to accept Pope Benedict XVI's apology for offending Muslims, saying it was "an obligation" according to Islamic teachings.

"As long as it (the Pope's remarks) was made out of negligence, we are obliged to accept the apology," Hasyim said on the sidelines of a religious leaders conference at the NU office.

The conference, held by the Indonesian Conference for Religion and Peace (ICRP), was also addressed by Cardinal Julius Darmaatmadja of the Indonesian Bishops Conference (KWI).

Hasyim said the regret was "enough" and further resentment from the Muslims would only justify the pope's statement. "If the rage continues, perhaps what the pope said is true," he said.

There are people on both sides. In my own little pessimistic world, I often think what we hear "mainstream" will never actually represent what reality is.

After all, publicizing peaceful muslims does nothing for our overall FUD sales, and certainly nothing positive in an election year.

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[livendive 8]

Quote

The imam being discussed is a quackie man, but c'mon... the mordern day Muslim is NOT same as the witch-burning zealot or the priest leading the Spanish Inquisition, nor are they the extremist Muslim you see gunning down a nun or burning the Pope in effigy.

Your statement also works with a couple of words changed.

I think Australia has turned out pretty well, given the nature of its founding society. I vote for us to evacuate it and start it over, populated by all Muslims who think all westerners represent an evil civilization, all westerners who think all Muslims belong to a violent religion, all Palestinians who think all Israeli's are the problem, and all communists and capitalists who cry for the destuction of the other. Let's give them basic medical and agricultural technology, then check back in 50 years.

It's pretty freaking simple people. Humanity varies. Everyone has more things that make them unique than things that tie them to any particular group besides "human". The actions of any individual or subset of individuals are not attributable to all members of a parent set.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,394]

>However, when the extremists in this religion speak, it seems
>just the opposite of the above example. Thousands calling for death
>and destruction . . .

If you change that to "the media reports on thousands calling for death and destruction" I would agree. There are 1.3 billion muslims on the planet; assuming .01% are nuts, that's still a LOT of nuts. Are there more muslim extremists than christian nuts? Most likely yes. But then again, there are more male extremists than female extremists, more 20ish year old extremists than 60 year old extremists and more third-world extremists than well-to-do extremists. And it makes just as much sense to pigeonhole people via those criteria as it does to pigeonhole them via religion.

I work with several muslims, some pretty devout. None of them support Al Qaeda, suicide bombers or assassination. About the only muslim protesters I've seen around here have been at peace rallies in the park, and the most extreme statement I've heard any of them make is that "both sides have to stop the killing." But those rallies don't make the news; the crowds burning effigies of Bush do.

This works in reverse, too. In most of the Arab world, news stories don't show US soldiers in Iraq sitting around protecting a pipeline, eating dinner or training Iraqi troops. The news stories show the firefights, again because they're more interesting. As a result lots of people think that the US only blows things up and kills Iraqis.

Don't make the same mistake they're making.

>not a peep from the peace loving side.

There are lots of peeps; they're just buried behind the "water skiing parakeet" stories rather than on the front page.

----------
Muslims here decry religious extremism
Chicago Sun-Times

http://www.suntimes.com/output/terror/cst-nws-fatwa30.html

In light of bomb attacks in London and Egypt, Muslim interest groups in Chicago on Friday joined Muslims nationwide in publicly decrying acts of violence performed for religion's sake.

Several Muslim interest groups here officially endorsed the fatwa, or religious decree, issued by the Fiqh Council of North America against religious extremism.
-----------
CONTRA COSTA TIMES – February 9, 2006

Bay Area Muslims denounce cartoons, violence
By Nathaniel Hoffman

Two Bay Area Muslim groups on Wednesday condemned published caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad and the violent reactions to the cartoons that have spread through the Muslim world this week.
------------
A Muslim woman's 'Call for Reform'
By Rich Barlow, Globe Staff | February 21, 2004

Canadian journalist Irshad Manji makes a manifesto for Muslim moderation.

"Islam is on very thin ice with me," she writes in "The Trouble With Islam: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith" (St. Martin's Press). She says that while other religions also contend with fundamentalist extremism, Islam's is particularly acute.
-----------------
Dutch Muslims rally against violence

Wednesday 10 November 2004, 10:07
Theo van Gogh's funeral has been telecast live

Muslims in the Netherlands have rallied to condemn violence and called for unity after an outspoken filmmaker was killed by a suspected Dutch Muslim.

A 26-year-old Dutch-Moroccan has been charged with last week's murder of Theo van Gogh, who had been accused of insulting Islam.

Van Gogh is due to be cremated later on Tuesday in a ceremony to be broadcast live on television.

Hundreds of people have laid flowers, candles and notes at the spot where Van Gogh was killed. They also left cactuses, a tribute to the filmmaker's prickly nature, and bottles of beer. Dozens of people circled the site on Tuesday.

About 60 young Dutch Muslims wearing orange T-shirts reading "We won't put up with extremism any more" cycled through Amsterdam stopping at mosques to protest against the killing.
----------------------
10/28/04 - MUSLIMS SPEAK AGAINST TERRORISM

01 November 2004

Queen Noor of Jordan is urging Muslims to speak out against the "ranting" of extremists who use Islam to justify beheadings and suicide bombings against innocent civilians.

In a recent interview, Queen Noor denounced the twisting of Islam by extremists. "What I believe are the vast majority of moderate Muslim clerics. . . .do not at all subscribe to the distorted ranting of these militant extremist groups and abhor the form that their zealotry has taken in terms of beheadings and suicide bombings and the killings of innocents, because these are forbidden in Islam," said Queen Noor.
-----------------

[JackC 0]

Quote

Quote

perhaps the Pope hasn't fully assimilated himself into the political role his position plays, versus his educational role his previous office held.

Exactly - that's the point I was making above. He's basically the clerical equivalent of a nerdy little college professor, sans the mid-life crisis. This pope really is less of an heirarchical politician than many other popes have been; he's been more of an apparatchik. I think this is a classic example of an executive who was let down by his senior staff, and stepped in it as a result. He really should take them back to the woodshed for a good ass-kicking.

I'm not so sure. The Pope has been around long enough to know how his comments might get taken. He isn't stupid. In fact god's rottwieler has got a history of pissing off anyone he doesn't agree with. He pissed the Jews off when he visited Auschwitz and forgot to mention anti-semitism, or offer any apology on behalf of Germany or the Church. He pissed off Buddhists when he said Buddhism was no more than mental masturbation. He pissed off gays calling homosexuality an intrinsic moral evil. He excommunicated seven women priests just for being women preists, he calls rock music the anti-thesis of the christian faith. Now he's pissed off the muslims and the best he can do is say that he's sorry they took offence. I think he knew very well what he was doing.

[pirana 0]

Quote

I wouldn't at all be surprised if the Pope is now above Salman Rushdie on the "People Muslims Must Kill" list.

. . . us little Christians get OUR panties in a wad when our religion is "persecuted?" Take a look at these guys who are (IMO) almost murderously angry at the Pontiff!

I think Christianity has matured and is no longer murderous; but Islam seems to not be growing up very well. It is like the bully of religions. Because of the weapons and tactics used nowadays, I fear they may never get the chance to mature the way mainstream Christianity has.

And don't Christians come in all sizes?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

I think Christianity has matured and is no longer murderous; but Islam seems to not be growing up very well.

Islam has not had its reformation, yet. It may never have a reformation. So we all get to deal with Islamic regimes led by radicals. It's a culture clash.

Inshallah in practice boils down to a complete abdication of personal responsibility. If God means for to happen, it will. The individual need do nothing other than give fealty to that God.

We are all engines of karma