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shropshire

So much for the cease fire....

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Israel carried out an overnight raid inside Lebanon aimed at disrupting an arms transfer, the Israeli army says.



I guess that other countries have stopped re-arming Israel too[:/]

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Israeli commandos were flown into the area, some 100km (60 miles) north of the Israeli border, but were repulsed by Hezbollah fighters. Israeli missile strikes in the area were also reported.


clicky.



.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

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I don't know what to tell you, Shrop. If Israel didn't have enemies in Lebanon attacking it, there would never have been the war in Lebanon.

Now then - is the the double standard (to which you seem to allude) fair? Yes, and here's why. To re-phrase what has been said in here many times:
Stop re-arming Israel's enemies, so that those enemies will stop threatening Israel's existence, and there will be peace. Stop re-arming Israel, so that it cannot defend its existence, and it will be destroyed.

Now I realize there are plenty of people at the BBC who'd love to have that happen, but that doesn't negate its truth.

Israel made it clear that its agreement to the cease-fire is contingent upon its reserving the right to defend itself. That doesn't mean Israel has to simply watch helplessly as Iran and Syria re-arm Hezbollah, but can do nothing until Hezbollah pulls the trigger again. In this case, Israel's right of self-defense means they can stop Iran and Syria from re-arming Hezbollah again. Oh, the BBC will paint the Israelis as cheeky bastards for it, but you know what? - tough shit.
Double standard? See above.

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If Israel didn't have enemies in Lebanon attacking it, there would never have been the war in Lebanon.



How about "If Lebanon wasn't invaded and occupied for decades by Israel, Hezbollah probably wouldn't even exist"?

You can't simply sum up the situation from only the most recent actions, or only the actions reported by pro-Israeli sources. It goes much further back than either of our statements above.

- Citizen of the World -

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If Israel didn't have enemies in Lebanon attacking it, there would never have been the war in Lebanon.



How about "If Lebanon wasn't invaded and occupied for decades by Israel, Hezbollah probably wouldn't even exist"?

You can't simply sum up the situation from only the most recent actions, or only the actions reported by pro-Israeli sources. It goes much further back than either of our statements above.



Hoo, boy, are you naive about the history. Israel only went into Lebanon in the 1980's because of years and years and years of cross-border terrorism, and Israel finally said - enough of this shit; we're putting a stop to it.

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Hi Andy.

I have ZERO problem anyone going after terrorits, but there has to be rules.

But, breaking a [hard gained] ceasefire is tragic, at best. So now is O.K for Irael to be hit?

Israel has a large enough arm industry, it doesn't need help from outside.




Also, (changing topic). the IDF fired large quantities of submunitions into Lebenon and, as is the way with such weapons, many did not go off and are now littering a number of sites with dangerous UODs just the right size to attract kiddies..... this is sooo close to anti-personel mining.

.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

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Hey, Shrop.

You know, there was a time when I tried to intellectualize possible solutions to the constant tragedy over there. The Oslo accords and their progeny made me think there was a light at the end of the tunnel. No longer. Now I'm convinced it will never end during my lifetime. Complete tragedy for everyone.

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Hoo, boy, are you naive about the history. Israel only went into Lebanon in the 1980's because of years and years and years of cross-border terrorism, and Israel finally said - enough of this shit; we're putting a stop to it.



Ok, so then what were the reasons for the 'cross-border terrorism'? And has anything been done to help solve their issues since?

- Citizen of the World -

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, so then what were the reasons for the 'cross-border terrorism'?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Israel's existence.



Ok, I'll concede that I'm naive on this matter, so please tell me the whole story?

My naive opinion is that people who were living in what is now Israel's borders, were forced out of their homes and hometowns by Israel. I.e. an invasion, who then effectively enforced a form of apartheid.

Is this wrong? Or are you simply saying that the locals felt that they were forced into terrorist actions .. killing people .. simply because they didn't get on with their new neighbours?

I mean, surely there's more to this than "Israel existed and they didn't like it"

- Citizen of the World -

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There is a esolution in place that puts an arms embargo on Hezbollah,

The UN is presently unable to enforce it. Probably, the UN will never be able to.

Those 13000 Katyushas Hezbollah has came from somewhere. The advanced anti-ship and anti-tank missiles did as well. Israel is probably looking to avoid the mistake made after the last withdrawal - i.e the fortification and rearmament of a terrorist organisation.

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"all goals were achieved".



The above quote is from the Israeli side. Maybe in the future, for the sake of objectivity, you should quote both parts?

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first of all the cease fire is a limited cease fire and Israel can still operate in a limited way when needed.
but if you insist on "breaking the cease fire" how about the morters fired by Hezbollah one day after the cease fire took place?
or better yet, how about the decleration of Hezbollah that it will not disarm or move away from the border (and the Lebanese government agreement to it) which was the initial condition for the cease fire?
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

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There is a esolution in place that puts an arms embargo on Hezbollah,



Israel is in violation of more UN resolutions than any country on the planet. No one comes close. Here's a list up to 1992, best I can do considering that I promised myself that I wasn't going to post anything today.

1955-1992:

* Resolution 106: ". . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid"

* Resolution 111: ". . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"

* Resolution 127: ". . . 'recommends' Israel suspend its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem"

* Resolution 162: ". . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions"

* Resolution 171: ". . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria"

* Resolution 228: ". . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"

* Resolution 237: ". . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"

* Resolution 248: ". . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"

* Resolution 250: ". . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"

* Resolution 251: ". . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"

* Resolution 252: ". . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"

* Resolution 256: ". . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation""

* Resolution 259: ". . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"

* Resolution 262: ". . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport"

* Resolution 265: ". . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"

* Resolution 267: ". . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"

* Resolution 270: ". . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon" * Resolution 271: ". . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"

* Resolution 279: ". . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"

* Resolution 280: ". . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon"

* Resolution 285: ". . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"

* Resolution 298: ". . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem"

* Resolution 313: ". . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"

* Resolution 316: ". . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"

* Resolution 317: ". . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"

* Resolution 332: ". . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon"

* Resolution 337: ". . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty"

* Resolution 347: ". . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon"

* Resolution 425: ". . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"

* Resolution 427: ". . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon'

* Resolution 444: ". . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"

* Resolution 446: ". . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"

* Resolution 450: ". . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"

* Resolution 452: ". . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"

* Resolution 465: ". . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program"

* Resolution 467: ". . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon"

* Resolution 468: ". . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"

* Resolution 469: ". . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians"

* Resolution 471: ". . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"

* Resolution 476: ". . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'"

* Resolution 478: ". . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'"

* Resolution 484: ". . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"

* Resolution 487: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility"

* Resolution 497: ". . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith"

* Resolution 498: ". . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"

* Resolution 501: ". . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"

* Resolution 509: ". . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"

* Resolution 515: ". . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"

* Resolution 517: ". . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"

* Resolution 518: ". . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"

* Resolution 520: ". . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut"

* Resolution 573: ". . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters

* Resolution 587: ". . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"

* Resolution 592: ". . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops"

* Resolution 605: ". . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians

* Resolution 607: ". . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention

* Resolution 608: ". . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"

* Resolution 636: ". . . 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians

* Resolution 641: ". . . 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians

* Resolution 672: ". . . 'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount

* Resolution 673: ". . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations

* Resolution 681: ". . . 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians

* Resolution 694: ". . . 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return

* Resolution 726: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians

* Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.

(taken from the above-mentioned title, pages 188 - 192)

THE FOLLOWING ARE THE RESOLUTIONS VETOED BY THE UNITED STATES DURING THE PERIOD OF SEPTEMBER, 1972, TO MAY, 1990 TO PROTECT ISRAEL FROM COUNCIL CRITICISM:

* . . . condemned Israel's attack against Southern Lebanon and Syria..."

* . . . affirmed the rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, statehood and equal protections. . . "

* . . . condemned Israel's air strikes and attacks in southern Lebanon and its murder of innocent civilians. . . "

* . . . called for self-determination of Palestinian people. . . "

* . . deplored Israel's altering of the status of Jerusalem, which is recognized as an international city by most world nations and the United Nations . . . "

* . . . affirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people . . . "

* . . . endorsed self-determination for the Palestinian people . . . "

* . . . demanded Israel's withdrawal from the Golan Heights . . . "

* . . . condemned Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip and its refusal to abide by the Geneva convention protocols of civilized nations.

* . . . condemned an Israeli soldier who shot eleven Moslem worshippers at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount near Al-Aqsa Mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem. . . "

* . . . urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Lebanon ... "

* . . . urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Beirut. . . "

* . . . urged cutoff of economic aid to Israel if it refused to withdraw from its occupation of Lebanon. . . "

* . . . condemned continued Israeli settlements in occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, denouncing them as an obstacle to peace. . . "

* . . . deplores Israel's brutal massacre of Arabs in Lebanon and urges its withdrawal. . . "

* . . . condemned Israeli brutality in southern Lebanon and denounced the Israeli 'Iron Fist' policy of repression. . . "

* . . . denounced Israel's violation of human rights in the occupied territories. . . "

* . . . deplored Israel's violence in southern Lebanon. . . "

* . . . deplored Israel's activities in occupied Arab East Jerusalem that threatened the sanctity of Muslim holy sites. . . "

* . . . condemned Israel's hijacking of a Libyan passenger airplane. . . "

* . . . deplored Israel's attacks against Lebanon and its measures and practices against the civilian population of Lebanon. . . "

* . . . called on Israel to abandon its policies against the Palestinian intifada that violated the rights of occupied Palestinians, to abide by the Fourth Geneva Conventions, and to formalize a leading role for the United Nations in future peace negotiations. . . "

* . . . urged Israel to accept back deported Palestinians, condemned Israel's shooting of civilians, called on Israel to uphold the Fourth Geneva Convention, and called for a peace settlement under UN auspices. . . "

* . . . condemned Israel's . . incursion into Lebanon. . . "

* . . . deplored Israel's . . . commando raids on Lebanon. . . "

* . . . deplored Israel's repression of the Palestinian intifada and called on Israel to respect the human rights of the Palestinians. . . "

* . . . deplored Israel's violation of the human rights of the Palestinians. . . "

* . . . demanded that Israel return property confiscated from Palestinians during a tax protest and allow a fact-finding mission to observe Israel's crackdown on the Palestinian intifada . . . "

* . . . called for a fact-finding mission on abuses against Palestinians in Israeli-occupied lands. . . "

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Israel is in violation of more UN resolutions than any country on the planet. No one comes close. Here's a list up to 1992, best I can do considering that I promised myself that I wasn't going to post anything today.



Thanks for listing some of the reasons why the U.N. is seen as a useless joke by most Americans.


. . =(_8^(1)

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Israel is in violation of more UN resolutions than any country on the planet. No one comes close. Here's a list up to 1992, best I can do considering that I promised myself that I wasn't going to post anything today.



Thanks for listing some of the reasons why the U.N. is seen as a useless joke by most Americans.




Until we need them to clean up our messes.

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Israel is in violation of more UN resolutions than any country on the planet. No one comes close.


very true, and here is the reasons why...

21 members of the UN are Arab countries, and at least 52 members represent Islamic countries.

starting with a few simple facts:

-The Arab nations are represented by 21 separate countries, israel is 1.

-Of the 189 member nations , 188 may be elected to serve on the powerful Security Council, guess who can't....

and while (valid for mid 03):
-Head of Human Rights commission: Lybia
-Head of Disarmament: Iraq (recently)
-a member if the security council : Syria
the UN seems like a joke...

here are some statistics from 1946-1990:

Security Council:
175 Total Resolutions
74 Neutral
4 Against the perceived interests of an Arab state or body
97 Against Israel
General Assembly:
Cumulative Number of Votes cast with/for Israel: 7,938.
Cumulative Number of Votes cast against Israel: 55,642

How about we take a look at the Human rights commission (was headed by lybia in 2003..)

*Israel has been the only state subject to an entire agenda item every year.

*The Commission on Human Rights has spent more time on Israel than any other country.
The Commission spent two days criticizing Israel and less than two hours on AIDS

*While 11 percent of its total substantive meeting has been on Israel alone, 24 percent of its time has been spent on all other UN states combined.

*27 percent of its country- specific resolutions critical of a state have been on Israel alone.

The real double standards? No resolution in the history of the commission has ever been passed on states such as Syria, China, Saudi Arabia or Zimbabwe.

other UN contributions:

1956: Permitted Nasser's nationalization of the Suez Canal

1967: Secretary-General U Thant withdrew UN peace- keeping forces from Gaza

1974: Invited Terrorist Yasser Arafat to address the General Assembly (long before the Oslo process started)

1975: Adopted the infamous resolution equating Zionism with racism

2000: UNIFIL obstructed investigation of Hezbollah kidnapping of Israeli soldiers

2001: Sponsored the anti-Israel World Conference on Racism in Durban, South Africa
---------------------------------------------
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

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Once again, if the US does not like the UN; a club that it's a primary member of.. then it has 2 choices..

(1)It can try to change the way that that club works
(2)It can pay it's [not inconsiderable] back dues and leave.



.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

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The US needs the UN. Because without it the job may go to them and they simply can't do the job. Not enough resources and look what happens when America goes it alone ie: Iraq
so as much as people like to bitch about the UN, the UN is needed. Without it we just go back to the days of secret pacts and alliances and arms races.
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

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very true, and here is the reasons why...

21 members of the UN are Arab countries, and at least 52 members represent Islamic countries.

starting with a few simple facts:



That's prett eye-opening right there. It should make even those that constantly rail against Israel open their eyes a little bit. Just post a source to head off the first distractionary argument.

Those figures really make me shake my head.
Oh, hello again!

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Without it we just go back to the days of secret pacts and alliances and arms races.



When was the last time the UN stopped a secret pact or arms race?



They stopped their own secret pact with Saddam Hussein to enrich themselves with lucrative oil contracts. Of course, only after is was discovered and they had to.

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