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FlyingJarhead

Exit Delay, stop pushing me

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I suport that one. If there are groups bigger than 3 or 4 you can add a second or two..

Shouldnt be to hard to do...
A skydiver's famous last words:
- Hey! Hold my beer, and watch this...!
- If that guy can do it, so can I...!
- In 9 out of 10 this will work out just fine. Don't worry about it...!

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Misconception. If the uppers are strong enough to require a long delay, then the aircraft is moving slowly enough that the time over an acceptable spot increases to accommodate. Provided, of course, that everyone knows what they're doing.



"provided, of course, that everyone knows what they're doing" :P

In this case, apparently they were doing a downwind jump run on a day when the uppers were cooking and the ground winds were in the opposite direction. :S

Sounds to me like it was just a crappy choice for jump run direction. The OP was trying to be safe. He was right, in this case to want to extend the delay, based on his previous jump. Still, knowing the winds and the likely drift is a better practice.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Ever thought about the possibility that in certain circumstances the mere "making a second pass" could be sacrificing safety?

You might be dropping into obstacels in the form of friends under parachute



This is why there is a right way and a wrong way to do a second pass.

For a small nuber of groups remaining, often a 150ish degree turn (left or right depending on the winds) will allow the plane to empty out on a downwind jumprun without taking up too much additional time. By keeping the turn shy of 180, you keep yourself from overflying the original jumprun.

For more groups left, or perhaps an AFF student who needs a second chance after a no-go, the pilot needs to make a full go-aroond, back to the original jumprun, and needs to do it slowly enough to allow the jumprun to clear out from first groups. In that situation, when we're lined up back on jumprun, I'll ususally call for 10 degress or so left or right, just to offset us a little for good measure.

These are things that the jumpers need to have established with their pilot. On jumprun with the door open is shitty place to work out the details. A simple command like "150 left" or "150 right" will suffuce for the first scenairio, and 'full go around' for the latter.

Not knowing how to do a go-round is the worst reason not to do one. As far as a DZO is concerned, the 150 degree turn is all you usually need. There shoudln't be more than an AFF or tandem or two in the plane by the time the spot has gone too long. A quick turn around will ensure that the staff and tandem/student rigs get back to the DZ for the next load.

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Most of the variables on timing can be solved with a simple speed/time chart at the door.



That is a brilliant idea. I have never heard of it before but I am going to try and sell it at our dz. Thanks



I will try to get a copy of the one we have in our Otter and post it here.

JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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>anyways i was met with someone behind me yelling at me to go . . .

When that happens to me, I take off my helmet to hear him better, turn around and see what he wants...



I just continue looking out the door, and calmly put a hand up with the palm flat, to say; "hold on, just give me a few seconds here, I know what I'm doing."

Then if I am wrong, they can ream me out on the ground later, or the DZO can ask me to pay for the go-around. But in the door is not the place for yelling and confusion, or rude immature responses.

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***Ever thought about the possibility that in certain circumstances the mere "making a second pass" could be sacrificing safety?


Ok, so if the uppers are cranking at 40mph, and giving the proper delay between groups means that half the otter load lands off field in an area with poor outs we should ............ Fill in the blank for me please, because I think it is better to give proper seperation.
Obviously you didn't think about other possibilities.

Pity...

You didn't say however that "the uppers are cranking @ 40 mph" and "I'm not capable to handle an off field landing" - that, of course, does limit your options...

As for "filling in the blanks" - consult your friendly local S&TA... keep in mind however that second passes under circumstances CAN give you poorer separation. :)
Of course "unlimited human greed, jeopardizing the poor skydivers safety" makes for better drama on the internet...:P

Luckily, per "Billvon's refutation of the 45 degree rule" uppers @ and above 40mph mean that everybody can take his time extensively and exit at his own convenience without the need of others to shout, be rude and/or impolite in order to get a decent chance to enjoy the freefall duration they paid for and make it back to the DZ comfortably... :)
@ Davelepka
I have done my share of go arounds and know how to handle them safely - avoiding the opening area of the first group is indeed the smarter plan. I have also (on occasion) seen jump pilots that couldn't find the first or any group before flying through them while they were under parachutes - lastly I have seen "communication" inside jumpplanes that in retrospect hardly qualified for that term...
@ All
If DZO's want you to go easy on go-arounds I think the vast majority really don't want to reduce the bills at the expense of your life / your limbs. Safety is good business practice.

Blank statements often are not...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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>But in the door is not the place for yelling and confusion, or rude
>immature responses.

Agreed. Which is why I take my helmet off so I can hear exactly what he's telling me.

I recall one incident in which a jumper's bag came out and everybody started yelling. Most were yelling "GO!" others were yelling "OPEN CONTAINER!" He went with the majority and climbed out. The canopy deployed over the tail and pitched the plane down. Most of the plane bailed out. He cut away and was OK; only damage was the deicer boot on the tail.

In retrospect he probably should have taken the time to listen to the people who were telling him he had an open container. It would have eliminated a very hairy bailout for me, my group and 14 other people.

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Misconception. If the uppers are strong enough to require a long delay, then the aircraft is moving slowly enough that the time over an acceptable spot increases to accommodate. Provided, of course, that everyone knows what they're doing.



Your right, less ground speed, which is part of the reason why we have to leave more time for proper seperation.:S

That still supports the case that if the uppers call for 14 seconds people shouldn't be screaming at you for counting past eight.

I am confident in my accuracy, so I have confidence landing off field. I fly belly in groups so I am some of the first out the door, I am not asking for the go around. You can't fault me for giving the proper delay determined by the staff and conditions. If I take too long in the door I can be corrected on the ground, if I take to little time in the door I might hit and kill some one or myself, and the learning would then cease. For the record I have yet to be told I am taking to long in the door.

I don't think I am taking the wrong, or unsafe stance, but this thread definetly has a had a lot of great info in it!!!
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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the person infront of me exited and i found my place in the door, i was trying to give him a good 10-15 seconds, after not waiting long enough on the prior jump, i came close and always wanted to be safe as possible. anyways i was met with someone behind me yelling at me to go, at around 8 seconds and i didnt feel comfortable, so i guess all im trying to say is be nice to nublets



I read most of the thread, keeping it in line with the original post, Seek knowledge and know how to spot. The old school way of spotting is a dying art because of green lights and GPS but you should know how to spot the old way in case the pilot has made an error somehow. Another reason is because things can change all the time and you have to know how to adjust.

I have had jumpers try and rush me doing a solo in the past, and videographers for tandems try to rush me when I have a coach student. I ignored them and if they had anything real to say they would approach me on the ground. None of them ever did and they all made it back to the intended landing area.
If the plane is loaded correctly you will go before any students but after any groups, since they open higher they can do a go around. The pilot should know to do an offset jump run and even if the run isn't offset it is still safe because tandems, aff and coach students initiate pack opening much higher and will be behind you and the run before the go around. If not then they are breaking BSRs and not paying attention to their altitude.

Don't go if you are not comfortable, no one is getting hosed. Blaming others for not pulling higher so they can make it back is a messed up. You are incharge of your jump within reason and your decsion counts not theirs.

Again, seek knowledge if you don't know. If you are just winging it then you have no credibility.

Just being honest. Hope I helped:)

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

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Sounds to me like it was just a crappy choice for jump run direction. The OP was trying to be safe. He was right, in this case to want to extend the delay, based on his previous jump. Still, knowing the winds and the likely drift is a better practice.

He was trying to be safe, but his lack of experience made him take more delay than neccessary. Oh well, that's what learning is all about.

When my group is being followed by a less experienced group or solo jumper, I'll ask them, flat out, how much delay they are planning to give us. If I like the answer, fine, if not, I'll tell them how much time to give us and why. Vskydiver almost got hit by a 8 way group that followed our 10 way. They watched us leave, then dove out 2-3 seconds later on a no-show, no-jam exit. :o>:(:S:S We coached-and-counseled a bit when we landed.

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similar happend to me once.. well, granted, we had been getting bad spots all day... orange light was on, and i hear GOOOO, .. i almost went, stopped, and looked at somenoe i trusted and had way more experience.. he read my questioning face, and shook his head NO. so i waited for green, liked my spot, and jumped. .. though i probably could have made it back from where the orange light was on. .. .. If i encounter that, i just look at the group that just exited, turn and look in the plane, look at the light, then go. this sequence gives me plenty of time to be where i wanted to be in the first place.
CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

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i just look at the group that just exited, turn and look in the plane, look at the light, then go. this sequence gives me plenty of time to be where i wanted to be in the first place.



do a search on freefall+drift+kallend and learn about wind layers and freefall drift

Your stated practice (maybe 5 to 8 seconds) is dangerous for days that have really fast uppers and slow lowers. In some conditions, it's not unusual to take 15 to 20 or more seconds between groups (full otter, tandems, 2 ways and 4 ways and mixed groups) and still have everyone make it back no problem.

There's too many goofy 'thumb rules' and not enough understanding of freefall drift going on these types of threads.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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...So by delaying your exit you were putting the jumpers behind you out way over the lake.

If you are doing a solo as in taking 100% responsibility for yourself...



The emphasis should be on those who got "out way over the lake".

Not him, but THEY should have been responsible enough to ask for the go-around, eh? Or, did I miss somehitng?

So,
HE delays his exit to the point of the jumpers behind him getting a bad spot.

Scenario A:
THEY jump and get hosed in the worst possible way.

Scenario B:
They check their spot before they leave and ask for the go-around. They come back around and get their good spot. The jumper that delayed them gets a lesson on the ground from the jumpmaster or DZO or S&TA about exit separation.

I don't see the problem other than someone wanting to blame someone else for their "spot".
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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This reminds me of when I was in Spain. Loads of people were shouting "door" at the extremely experienced freefly champions who just sat calmly til everyone shut up and made a motion to part all the heads so he could see the pilot. When he got a thumbs up from the pilot then they opened the door and started there exit.

I find it tense enough without people shouting and screaming. As others have stated, the only shouting I want to hear is if there is a problem not because some pumped up egohead wants to get out ASAP

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>> But in the door is not the place for yelling and confusion,
>> or rude immature responses.

> Agreed. Which is why I take my helmet off so I can hear exactly
> what he's telling me.

Even better, wear a helmet with open earpieces, like a Protec, so that you can hear what's being said without having to remove the helmet.

Oops, that's a different topic of discussion.

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60MPH is 88 ft/sec. If the plane is doing 80MPH, then the speed is 117 ft/sec.

8 seconds of separation is 900+ feet, which begs the question - just how much do you need?

15 seconds is over 1700 ft, 1/3 of a mile, which for the most part is extreme.

Now I know that I have not figured out the uppers, but given that we already have argued that over and over in forums, and the exit order based on types of skydives appears to solve that problem, then 8 seconds ought to be PLENTY of separation unless the upper heaadwinds are extreme and have the aircraft slowed/stopped relative to the ground.

As a DZO, I tell people 5-8 seconds separation because I know they will take 10-12 anyway. If you say 15, then it turns into 20-30 seconds.

By the time the group in front of you exits, you climb out, get your grips, do your count and GO, you generally have enough separation between groups.

Pull out a stopwatch, go last from the plane and time each of the gaps from go to go. I bet it is way longer than you think.

So yes, people like me yell GO from the front of the plane because I think 1/3 of a mile is too much separation on any skydive.

Just trying to balance jump prices with safety.....

TK

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60MPH is 88 ft/sec. If the plane is doing 80MPH, then the speed is 117 ft/sec.

8 seconds of separation is 900+ feet, which begs the question - just how much do you need?

TK



Depends on the group size. You are right for a solo following a solo. But two 10-way teams at your Turkey Meet with good trackers breaking at 4500 and tracking to 2500 would easily eat up that 900 feet. :)
If each member of a 10-way tracked until 300ft from the next guy, evenly distributed around the center, they'd have to go some 480 feet from the center of the formation. So to get 300 ft from the next team's tracks, the separation between exits would need to be (2x480)+300 = 1260ft, or around 11 seconds.

Not a problem of course, since no-one else would be on the plane to get hosed (assuming an Otter) and they'd take that long to get set up anyway.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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>which begs the question - just how much do you need?

I use 1000 feet as a minimum for small RW (4 way.) That allows 300 feet for people to track and still be 400 feet from the other guy. Even this is really a minimum; if you slide only a few hundred feet (not unusual for newer 4-way teams) that gets eaten up pretty fast.

For larger groups. or new freeflyers (who slide a LOT) 2000 feet is a better minimum.

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the person infront of me exited and i found my place in the door, i was trying to give him a good 10-15 seconds, after not waiting long enough on the prior jump, i came close and always wanted to be safe as possible. anyways i was met with someone behind me yelling at me to go, at around 8 seconds and i didnt feel comfortable, so i guess all im trying to say is be nice to nublets



I think your points are valid. However, you have not mentioned how much time you needed to have proper separation. Do you know how to calculate separation? What were the conditions? And apparently you exited too soon on a prior jump, do you think you might have been overcautious and actually taken too long in the door on this next jump? To be honest with you 15 seconds a huge amount of time, under typical circumstances. Was it the right amount of time? If not was the group behind you actually justified in voicing a complaint? They might not have voiced it properly and there is no excuse for that but it sounds like they might have been right.

It may be better for you to understand how to calculate separation then to complain that the group behind you was unpleasant. Understanding separation will let you potentially avoid this in the future, and if it does come up be able to have a defensible position with the person on the ground after the fact. Knowledge is power.
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

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With our set up at this DZ a "Go Around" may not be such a simple proceedure.

But my point is that in the conditions on that particular day, he did not need such a long separation.

If he was too close to the group on his previous jump, perhaps there were other factors. Backsliding, tracking, 2 sec delay, etc.

My offer was for him to come seek a professional opinion instead of guessing and possibly overcompensating.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

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A couple jumps ago I was spotting for the whole load, basically, and the uppers were very high. (We knew this on the ground, and I picked a climbout and exit position based on this and the number of groups.)

The jumpers behind me were very agitated in the manner you describe. I told them they were free to go first, and I easily shifted and cleared the wide Caravan door. I promised I'd wait plenty of time before following them. They did not take me up on my offer. I can't recall if this was because they actually looked out at that point, or some other thought process. ;)

So in the end, everyone opened precisely where I intended them to, and we all had no trouble flying back and landing happily, proving* wind charts, a little math, and a couple hundred jumps' experience at that location with that jump run heading can do wonders.

(* Really, one jump proves nothing. But I made sure to talk to each of them afterward to try and rub in how well my exit point worked out for them. ;))

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

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Last February in Eloy we had a 55 knot jump run. The exit delays, from video, were 22 seconds between groups. And even with that some of the prior group was a little below us. It took people half the day to stop yelling go.

Don't sweat it. Skydivers have an attention span like gold fish, they won't remember your rig color.

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