Custom art on rig

[Firebolt580 0]

Was thinking about getting some custom artwork done on my dolphin container by a friend using a air brush. Is there a specific kind of air brush paint that should be used on it so the rig won't get ruined or any treatments ?

Kyle Rhoades

[riggerrob 558]

Consult a container manufacturer to determine which paints affect nylon fabric the least.
Maybe DuPont.
Nylon is tough stuff. The greater risk is paint adhering to a pair of flaps ..... gluing them together ........ delaying opening.
Also consult your local rigger. Bring your can of paint when you visit.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Firebolt,

Quote

air brush paint

Once you put paint on the fabric or webbing, that material(s) will no longer comply with the standards that it was purchased against.

IMO that makes the TSO invalid.

Jerry Baumchen

[councilman24 36]

riggerrob

Also consult your local rigger. Bring your can of paint when you visit.

99% of riggers wouldn't know what to do with a can of paint. I'm a chemist and would probably just say no. Unless it's blue or yellow and says parachute marking ink on it.😉

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

The only parts routinly painted have been non-critical parts, most often pilot chute caps on Racers. Many other odd ball rigs like leather, fur, painted etc are overlays of additional fabric, authorized by the manufacturer, over the normal flaps and material.

DO NOT have some one take an airbrush to your rig without express written permission from the manufacturer with materials and techniques listed. Unlikely to occur. If your pin protector flaps can be removed and reinstalled then permission is more likely. Don't do them in place and don't do ANYTHING with canopies in conta9ner.

Paint your helmet, leave you rig alone.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[RiggerLee 61]

Not disagreeing with any of the above. There is a president of the racer caps. That guy did some nice art work. I am curious what he used as it wore fairly well. For instance in signs and t-shirts they use epoxy, by that I mean two part, based inks for synthetics or plastics when they silk screen the art work. Huge pain in the ass. I'm curious what would adhere well to nylon. I've heard of people painting logos on the bottom skin of canopies but I never found out what they used. Of course the modern cool way is dye sublimation...

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[councilman24 36]

Rickerby

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[pchapman 261]

JerryBaumchen

Once you put paint on the fabric or webbing, that material(s) will no longer comply with the standards that it was purchased against.

Or could one say, a rigger might have no idea whether it will comply and thus might refuse to pack it?

Unless the paint affects the material, it is still the same material.... just with other stuff on the outside and embedded between the woven strands.

What about a rig with dirt in it, or that got into salt water and dried? Maybe the relative impermanence makes those less of a problem -- those do wash out.

Is paint actually destroying the strength of the material?

What if you paint a brand new rig, is that any less like the TSO configuration than an old sun faded rig with fuzzy webbing and scraped fabric?

Although I might be a little argumentative, I'm not really disputing the notion that it is not at all recommended to start spray painting rigs...

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Peter,

Quote

material(s) will no longer comply

Your posts are usually well thought and informative.

Not one thing in your post addresses the fact that the material will no longer comply.

Jerry Baumchen

[wmw999 2,114]

Can the artwork be painted on a patch, which is then sewn to the non-structural part of the rig?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[RiggerLee 61]

Define, non structural. There are approved, TSO'd, componants and... every thing else. A main container is not TSO'd a main is not TSO'd but still it's not supposed to be altered by a non rigger. If an "alteration" is approved, almost any thing could be done even to the reserve tray and harness. There isn't really a definition for "non structural".

So depending on how anal you want to be, sewing a "patch" whether it's painted or not, onto a component could be called an alteration requiring ether a master rigger or FAA/manufacturer approval. In theory even the Mud flap which is about a "non structural" as I can think of.

Reality is way different. We all have horror stories of the abuses suffered by innocent containers at the hands of their owners. The "Marksalot" rig, If he didn't want the stripes to be pink he shouldn't have bought the rig. The "Glitter" rig, I suspect there were drugs involved. The Epoxy rig, don't ask. In most cases these poor abused peaces of equipment continue to serve there owners fatefully even in the most abusive relation ships where all of their self respect has been stripped away from them.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Wendy,

Quote

non-structural part

RiggerLee has posted an excellent comment ( Thank You ).

I ( that means just me ) consider the structural part of a rig to be the various webbings/tapes, the threads & the various pieces of hardware. In other words, the harness.

I do not consider the container, reserve pilot chute, reserve d-bag to be a 'structural part' of a rig. Others may disagree.

It would seem to me that your thoughts would allow someone to take a piece of container fabric, paint it & then sew it to, oh say, one of the side flaps of the reserve container. Now, if that paint is on rather heavy it would be very stiff, which could very definitely effect the function of the reserve container.

It it's one's main container, paint to your heart's content; you still have your reserve to save your life.

Just my thoughts on your comment; not meant to argue but to clarify.

And I, personally, think these types of posts and the ensuing replies help to make all of us a little smarter about these things.

Jerry Baumchen

[riggerrob 558]

I have to agree with Rigger Lee on this point.

Many years ago, a rigger brought an old Talon to Rigging Innovations' factory. I was sceptical because all the (originally silver) binding tape had been coated with black shoe dye. The second owner could not identify which type of shoe dye had been applied.
Sandy Reid replied "Because we do not know what chemicals are involved, this rig was never here. We never saw it. We will not do any repairs. We will not do any updates."

[councilman24 36]

***

Correctrion Lee, requiring a Master rigger AND manufacturer's approval or FAA field approval. NOT or. A master rigger can't do any alteration without manufacturers approval or FAA approval.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[RiggerLee 61]

Sorry I wasn't clear. I mint a master rigger if it was a non TSO'd part or the an approval from the FAA/Manufacturer for a master rigger if it was a TSO approved part. My bad. It's my illiteracy showing through in my writing.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[gowlerk 1,901]

Hey Kyle,

I think you will need to go get a rigger rating first. Probably no one else will want to repack and sign for your container after the paint job!

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Lee,

Quote

approval from the FAA/Manufacturer for a master rigger

It is possible for a Senior Rigger to get an approval; it's up to the approving authority to make the call. That being said, I do agree that it is almost always easier if one is a Master Rigger.

I've gotten many FAA approvals & one Mfr approval.

Jerry Baumchen

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

It is possible for a Senior Rigger to get an approval; it's up to the approving authority to make the call.

I would say that would be a violation of the regulations.

Have you ever seen or heard of a senior rigger getting an approval like this from the FAA???

Also,a manufacturer cannot legally give someone an approval for someone to work outside of his/her certificate privileges.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[yoink 321]

pchapman

What about a rig with dirt in it, or that got into salt water and dried? Maybe the relative impermanence makes those less of a problem -- those do wash out.

Is paint actually destroying the strength of the material?

I think the point would be that there is enough experimental evidence from the daily use of rigs to show that dirt or wear isn't instantly and catastrophically going to affect the strength of a harness. Also the wear is mechanical rather than chemical...
The wear is generally gradual and a rigger who sees a lot of harnesses can gauge it against the thousands of others he's seen and make a judgement.

Not so with paint. The only answer a rigger can give about whether the paint is actually destroying the strength of the material is 'I don't know', which to me instantly means they would err on the side of caution. The same goes for the manufacturers... unless they've done specific testing of specific paints and harness materials I don't believe any of them would take the chance of saying 'we're not sure, but yeah, go for it. Why not?'


I'd also mention that you'd probably look like an asshole if you walked around a DZ with a painted rig. Even more of a reason not to do it!

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Mark,

Quote

I would say that would be a violation of the regulations.

I've read my share of regs & other FAA documents. I do not remember reading that.

However, I am very sure that I have not read everything that the FAA has produced.

I do not remember reading any that specifically says it must be a Master Rigger.

I may be wrong on this & you may be right; I am not going to crawl thru my trove of documents to find out.

Do you have a cite? It would definitely be good to know.

Jerry Baumchen

[riggerrob 558]

RiggerLee

Sorry I wasn't clear. I mint a master rigger ..... My bad. It's my illiteracy showing through in my writing.

Lee

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Your literacy has improved immensely over the last few years.

[masterrigger1 2]

Jerry,
Only a Master rigger can do alterations.Unles Supervised,etc...

65.125 Certificates: Privileges.
(a) A certificated senior parachute rigger may—

(1) Pack or maintain (except for major repair) any type of parachute for which he is rated; and

(2) Supervise other persons in packing any type of parachute for which that person is rated in accordance with §105.43(a) or §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.

(b) A certificated master parachute rigger may—

(1) Pack, maintain, or alter any type of parachute for which he is rated; and

(2) Supervise other persons in packing, maintaining, or altering any type of parachute for which the certificated parachute rigger is rated in accordance with §105.43(a) or §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.

(c) A certificated parachute rigger need not comply with §§65.127 through 65.133 (relating to facilities, equipment, performance standards, records, recent experience, and seal) in packing, maintaining, or altering (if authorized) the main parachute of a dual parachute pack to be used for intentional jumping.


As per the regs above a senior is not allowed to make alterations.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Mark,

Quote

As per the regs above a senior is not allowed to make alterations.

I do my best to not try to read something into something that I am/am not in favor of.

And, not to split hairs, but it does not specifically say that a Senior Rigger could not get an approval from a mfr to make some simple alteration.

I read: alter any type of parachute for which he is rated

as NOT referring to an approved alteration.

I would be interesting to get the FAA's interpretation on this one.

Take care,

Jerry Baumchen

PS) While I may disagree with you, I do value your input.

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

I do my best to not try to read something into something that I am/am not in favor of.

Jerry,
I never said that you did. But I know that you are never in favor for any government oversight with regards to rigging and always seem to lean in that direction.

The problem that I have is that I am heavily involved with reading . teaching, and testing of the regulations. When people, such as yourself make statements that are not in alignment with the regulations, I do my best to correct them. And it is not splitting hairs by the way.

Quote

I read: alter any type of parachute for which he is rated

as NOT referring to an approved alteration.

Well here are the facts:
1. A Senior rigger does not have the privileges of making alterations.
2. A FAA inspector or any manufacturer cannot change the regulations (law) to allow a senior alteration privileges with the simple whip of a pen.
3. The procedures for alteration approval allow only for individuals that hold an appropriate rating which is a master rigger.

Also going back to my previous question; do you have knowledge of a Senior Rigger ever obtaining an approval for alteration from the FAA?

I have attached a section from 8900.1;Volume 8, Chapter 5, Section 8.
It only speaks of Master riggers BTW.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[RiggerLee 61]

Started to write this earlier but I got distracted.

It's always been my understanding that only a Master rigger can sign off or apply to the FAA for approval for an alteration. The two I did through the FAA were signed by Stanford.

I think the more interesting question regards the manufacturer. We've always been lucky here to be top heavy with really good riggers. Multi generational. There has always been a Master around to sign paper work on a repair or SB or what ever. Some places are not as lucky. Manufacturers have a motivation to authorize senior riggers to perform SB, AD, alterations, maintenance, etc. on there equipment. There are some standards that you can reference regarding what constitutes a minor vs. major repair. Those debates are eternal. Often they conclude with "What does the manufacturer say?" Some of them are clear but a lot have really... lose definitions. Some I don't think know the difference. As to alterations I've been told by manufactures that a master did not even need to call them to get approval. It was when I needed to add another set of three rings to my container for cutaways. It was clearly an ALTERATION. I wanted to send them a drawing and get them to sign it. They were telling us to just do it. That's when I got to drive down to the FSDO to at least get some one to sign it. That's an extreme example but SB are a lot more common.

My question comes down to this. What constitutes an Alteration? Is there an actual definition to this? In theory there is an approved configuration for the equipment, a drawing some where reflecting the "Design". You could say that an alteration was any thing that took it out of compliance with that "Design". Example: say you wanted to re trim your canopy steeper. Crw guys do this sort of thing all the time. I think that would constitute an "Alteration". But what if the company has multiple specs for that canopy, several trims, also common. In this case it would still be in compliance with one of their "Designs". If they allow senior riggers to replace lines or reline canopies... Is this an alteration? By the same logic. Say there is a "Design" a SB comes out to fix a problem. Let's say that it's to move the closing loop on the main from a tong to the bottom flap. They have now established a drawing for this. This new configuration is now the "Design" of the rig. If a senior rigger repairs the rig to bring it into compliance with the "Design" established by the manufacturer is he altering the container. He took a peace of equipment that the manufacturer had declared unairworthy. and brought it back into compliance with the manufacturers "Design". If it had a broken line, out of conformance with the drawing, and he repaired that line, bringing it back in to conformance with the "Drawing". Would that be an "Alteration"? You could define "Alteration" as any thing taking the equipment out of conformance with the manufacturers established "Design". You might define a "Repair", be it minor or major, as an action that brings a peace of equipment that it out of conformance or standard back into conformance with the manufacturers "design". Under this definition many SB, approved "Alterations", could come under the heading of "Repairs". And if it is the manufacturers prerogative to define what constitutes a "Major" or "Minor" repair on there equipment, often people list the manufacturer as the first authority on this and industry standards as the second, then in theory the manufacturer could authorize a lot of SB.

Next question. If we say that there is a "Design", a "Drawing" for this peace of equipment and that any thing that takes it out of compliance with that "Drawing" constitutes an "Alteration". How specific do we want to be. For every container or canopy out there, there exist a file. For example when I worked for Stanford, There was a file for every rig he ever built. It contained every thing, the original order form, specs on the container pattern set, every measurement in the harness, ripcord and housing lengths, tracking information on every peace of hard ware, fabric, webbing, all tracked through purchase order number back through lots in every supplier. You could pull that file and know literally every thing about that rig. So, lets say you decide to lengthen the main lift web. Common work done by master riggers every where. Take out one stitch pattern, move the webbing down an inch, and resew with the same pattern. Rig fits the new owner now. Is this rig still in compliance? It may match the original manufacturers "Design" but it no longer matches the "Drawing" and data in the file. Measurements have changed and the thread no longer comes from that lot. If fact where does that thread come from? Where is the control or specs for it? In the file that junction was inspected and signed off. No more. And it's not like those dimensions can't be important. Harness fit and design isn't actually that simple. People have fallen out before. This is just one example. What about replacing a lost ripcord? That length is specified and can be critical. Sound silly but I'll give you a precedent. Javelin says that you can't replace their ripcord with any other even from another TSO'd manufacturer. They have their special terminal pin. It's in their drawing. They call that an "Alteration" and do not authorize it.

My point is that maybe we should be treating these things less casually It's not that much of a stretch to ask some one to notify a manufacturer and get permittion to alter a MLW. It could be a standard form and then the manufacturer could have tracking on that. If it needed to be repaired they could send materials or hardware and have tracking information on both rather then to have it replaced with twenty year old webbing and a peace of hard ware from Para gear and don't get me started on the thread.

So what is an "Alteration"?

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com