Jimbo 0 #1 July 25, 2006 Found this in Car and Driver magazine a few days ago and thought that it was interesting. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/11174/tech-stuff-ethanol-promises.html - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,732 #2 July 25, 2006 A few errors: "In fact, some studies have concluded that making ethanol from agricultural crops requires more energy than is contained in the finished product." This has been shown to not be true about a dozen times since the original study came out 20 years ago. The original study was based on a prototype process that wasn't designed to be very efficient. "On the downside, the fuel economy on E85 was diminished more than 30 percent." This is because vehicles today are not designed to run on ethanol. On variable-compression-ratio engines (like the Atkinson engine) ethanol produces more power. That's one reason it's widely used as racing fuel. Ethanol is not a magic solution. It may well be _one_ of the solutions to our fuel problem. A combination of ethanol, biodiesel, synthetic fuels and methane will likely make up the fuel mix in the future. Once we have a good mix of those vehicles, any scarcity in one fuel will drive a change to a cheaper option, thus making us less reliant on any one form of power. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #3 July 25, 2006 Cool. I was hoping that you'd comment on this. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #4 July 25, 2006 This is because vehicles today are not designed to run on ethanol. On variable-compression-ratio engines (like the Atkinson engine) ethanol produces more power. That's one reason it's widely used as racing fuel.Quote There are advantages and disadvantages to all fuel. But saying ethonal produces more horsepower is a little misleading. Becaue ethonal can be used in high compression engines (for multiple reasons) the engines using it can produce high horse power. That does not equate into ethanol has more energy in it. And indy cars use methenol not ethenal Bill, the reference to the Atkinson engine because of the variable compression ratios relates to this. This link gets into more detail [/url]http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question202.htm[url]"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #5 July 25, 2006 QuoteA few errors: "In fact, some studies have concluded that making ethanol from agricultural crops requires more energy than is contained in the finished product." This has been shown to not be true about a dozen times since the original study came out 20 years ago. The original study was based on a prototype process that wasn't designed to be very efficient. "On the downside, the fuel economy on E85 was diminished more than 30 percent." This is because vehicles today are not designed to run on ethanol. On variable-compression-ratio engines (like the Atkinson engine) ethanol produces more power. That's one reason it's widely used as racing fuel. Ethanol is not a magic solution. It may well be _one_ of the solutions to our fuel problem. A combination of ethanol, biodiesel, synthetic fuels and methane will likely make up the fuel mix in the future. Once we have a good mix of those vehicles, any scarcity in one fuel will drive a change to a cheaper option, thus making us less reliant on any one form of power. Exactly Bill a alky burner will usually run a compression ratio of around 12.5:1 or better around 14:1 gives a nice power curve with great throttle response. An Alchohol burning V8 like a chevy 350 with a TPI and street performance cam with hydraulic lifters and ported stock heads can produce as much as 475hp no problem, if you go with aftermarket or large valve heads you can easily produce 750Bhp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,732 #6 July 25, 2006 >That does not equate into ethanol has more energy in it. Agreed. It just generates more power in an engine designed for it. Power and energy are not the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #7 July 25, 2006 It may generate more power at a higher compression ratio, but economy will go into the toilet, will it not? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,732 #8 July 25, 2006 >but economy will go into the toilet, will it not? ?? Not really. You need more fuel for more power (obviously) so if you are trying to do 0 to 60 in 3 seconds your fuel economy will stink no matter what the fuel is. Used on an adjustable-compression-ratio vehicle, fuel economy is comparable to gasoline. It contains less energy per gallon, but higher compression engines are more efficient, so it just about cancels out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #9 July 25, 2006 > ?? Not really. I guess you're right. I always assumed that more compression meant more air, and therefore more fuel. I'm googling now for adjustable compression ratio vehicles, but do you know what the premium for such technology is? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,732 #10 July 25, 2006 >I'm googling now for adjustable compression ratio vehicles, but do >you know what the premium for such technology is? Right now the only commercial engine I know of that can do that is the Atkinson engine (the Prius and Tundra have these) but the software/engine is not set up to change the compression ratio beyond a certain limit. As a result the Prius has much less efficiency loss than most cars when run on E85, but there still is some loss and you don't get the power benefit. Basically, in an Atkinson engine, you increase the compression by shortening the cylinder, then reduce it again by closing the intake valve late. This lets some of the cylinder charge spill back out into the manifold, thus reducing the effective compression. By varying the intake valve timing you vary the compression. An "ideal" Atkinson engine would sense the alcohol/gasoline mixture and adjust mixture, compression and ignition timing to maximize power. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SpeedRacer 1 #11 July 25, 2006 Another advantage to ethanol: If the cops give you a breathalyzer you can just tell 'em you were siphoning fuel. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #12 July 25, 2006 Quote>An "ideal" Atkinson engine would sense the alcohol/gasoline mixture and adjust mixture, compression and ignition timing to maximize power. not to be confused with the Atkin's engine - which runs primarily on eggs, meat, cheese and green leafy vegetables ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #13 July 25, 2006 Quote > ?? Not really. I guess you're right. I always assumed that more compression meant more air, and therefore more fuel. Jim No it is the same volume of air/fuel in the cylinder it is only more compressed. and Alchohol is oxygen bearing so if you give it more fuel it only produces more power(to a point), instead of gagging on the fuel from not having enough air(gasoline) Geez am I the only one who had friends that raced Alchohol Dragsters? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,343 #14 July 25, 2006 QuoteI guess you're right. I always assumed that more compression meant more air, and therefore more fuel. Are you thinking of 'boost' as in turbo/supercharging?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #15 July 25, 2006 I momentarily confused the two. I have since seen the error of my ways. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
warpedskydiver 0 #5 July 25, 2006 QuoteA few errors: "In fact, some studies have concluded that making ethanol from agricultural crops requires more energy than is contained in the finished product." This has been shown to not be true about a dozen times since the original study came out 20 years ago. The original study was based on a prototype process that wasn't designed to be very efficient. "On the downside, the fuel economy on E85 was diminished more than 30 percent." This is because vehicles today are not designed to run on ethanol. On variable-compression-ratio engines (like the Atkinson engine) ethanol produces more power. That's one reason it's widely used as racing fuel. Ethanol is not a magic solution. It may well be _one_ of the solutions to our fuel problem. A combination of ethanol, biodiesel, synthetic fuels and methane will likely make up the fuel mix in the future. Once we have a good mix of those vehicles, any scarcity in one fuel will drive a change to a cheaper option, thus making us less reliant on any one form of power. Exactly Bill a alky burner will usually run a compression ratio of around 12.5:1 or better around 14:1 gives a nice power curve with great throttle response. An Alchohol burning V8 like a chevy 350 with a TPI and street performance cam with hydraulic lifters and ported stock heads can produce as much as 475hp no problem, if you go with aftermarket or large valve heads you can easily produce 750Bhp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,732 #6 July 25, 2006 >That does not equate into ethanol has more energy in it. Agreed. It just generates more power in an engine designed for it. Power and energy are not the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #7 July 25, 2006 It may generate more power at a higher compression ratio, but economy will go into the toilet, will it not? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,732 #8 July 25, 2006 >but economy will go into the toilet, will it not? ?? Not really. You need more fuel for more power (obviously) so if you are trying to do 0 to 60 in 3 seconds your fuel economy will stink no matter what the fuel is. Used on an adjustable-compression-ratio vehicle, fuel economy is comparable to gasoline. It contains less energy per gallon, but higher compression engines are more efficient, so it just about cancels out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #9 July 25, 2006 > ?? Not really. I guess you're right. I always assumed that more compression meant more air, and therefore more fuel. I'm googling now for adjustable compression ratio vehicles, but do you know what the premium for such technology is? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,732 #10 July 25, 2006 >I'm googling now for adjustable compression ratio vehicles, but do >you know what the premium for such technology is? Right now the only commercial engine I know of that can do that is the Atkinson engine (the Prius and Tundra have these) but the software/engine is not set up to change the compression ratio beyond a certain limit. As a result the Prius has much less efficiency loss than most cars when run on E85, but there still is some loss and you don't get the power benefit. Basically, in an Atkinson engine, you increase the compression by shortening the cylinder, then reduce it again by closing the intake valve late. This lets some of the cylinder charge spill back out into the manifold, thus reducing the effective compression. By varying the intake valve timing you vary the compression. An "ideal" Atkinson engine would sense the alcohol/gasoline mixture and adjust mixture, compression and ignition timing to maximize power. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #11 July 25, 2006 Another advantage to ethanol: If the cops give you a breathalyzer you can just tell 'em you were siphoning fuel. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #12 July 25, 2006 Quote>An "ideal" Atkinson engine would sense the alcohol/gasoline mixture and adjust mixture, compression and ignition timing to maximize power. not to be confused with the Atkin's engine - which runs primarily on eggs, meat, cheese and green leafy vegetables ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #13 July 25, 2006 Quote > ?? Not really. I guess you're right. I always assumed that more compression meant more air, and therefore more fuel. Jim No it is the same volume of air/fuel in the cylinder it is only more compressed. and Alchohol is oxygen bearing so if you give it more fuel it only produces more power(to a point), instead of gagging on the fuel from not having enough air(gasoline) Geez am I the only one who had friends that raced Alchohol Dragsters? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,343 #14 July 25, 2006 QuoteI guess you're right. I always assumed that more compression meant more air, and therefore more fuel. Are you thinking of 'boost' as in turbo/supercharging?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #15 July 25, 2006 I momentarily confused the two. I have since seen the error of my ways. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
