Israeli soldiers kidnapped, and Isarael is now shelling

[GTAVercetti 0]

Tha tis why I said in North American media. Because I don't know enough about Eurpean media coverage on this.

Thanks for the information.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[sundevil777 93]

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The history of the region is well documented, not so hard to find out what really started it, for those that care to take a little time to research.

Then please do tell me who started it, since you claim it is so easy.

I think your statement about the liberal media is laughable and utterly false.

The Arabs started it.

Myths and Facts

The Arabs promised to destroy Israel if it was created, and they did indeed try, and fail, again and again.

Some will cry that it is unfair that the palestinians have such poor weapons. By that logic, the US should not have invaded Afghanistan because of their military superiority.

This link provides a great example of how the media has been biased against Israel...on the day the intafada started, immediately after Arafat rejected the peace offer that his own negotiators recommended to him:

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/reports/The_Photo_that_Started_it_All.asp

The honest reporting web site is full of such examples.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,380]

>The Arabs started it.

Was that a joke? Or do people here really use such arguments?

[yoram 0]

your so called "proportional response", i mean to the IRA,may be the cause of the long and bloody war.
they must have thought that england wasn't too serious of its will to continue its occupation of ireland, don't you think?
who can tell what is a proportional answer and what is not?
when someone is testing you, don't let him be mistaken about your intentions. And you know what, ithe world doesn't have to accept anything, it is none of its concern, it is only a matter of survival, and you certainly won't help free those soldiers? am i wrong?

[sundevil777 93]

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>The Arabs started it.

Was that a joke? Or do people here really use such arguments?

No joke. He asked a simple question, I gave a straightforward, simple answer. Not everything is different shades of grey. The Arab world decided to not accept the League of Nations and UN decisions after WWI and WWII. They tried to change it by war and repeatedly failed.

It is not so complicated.

Myths and Facts

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[yoram 0]

you mean like in Bombay, India. those guys there killed your people also?
or like in Madrid, Spain?
or may be in London, England?
don't you have something better to do? try to be more pragmatic mister, but then again may be you have plenty of brothers in which case i rest my case you indeed must defend them.....

[billvon 2,380]

>No joke. He asked a simple question, I gave a straightforward, simple answer.

Wow.

If those are the sort of issues people are fighting over, we don't need negotiators, warplanes and soldiers to solve this problem. We need parents.

[sundevil777 93]

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>No joke. He asked a simple question, I gave a straightforward, simple answer.

Wow.

If those are the sort of issues people are fighting over, we don't need negotiators, warplanes and soldiers to solve this problem. We need parents.

OK, so you consider me a child. You are good at using words to craft your personal insults.

Even if the league of nations and UN were not justified/right to do what they did, it doesn't mean it should be undone now. Just as much of the US was lagely taken by force from others, we are not expected to surrender it. The Arabs have tried repeatedly tried to undo it, by war, and have failed. Much of the worlds boundaries were established by unjust wars. I think what the league of nations and UN did was very reasonable.

Myths and Facts

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[GTAVercetti 0]

I believe he meant the Israeli/Palestinians.

Unless you have a problem with Palestinians in your backyard or something.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[livendive 8]

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The media does not ALWAYS spin them as poor victims as was stated

no, not always, but most of the times and especially by european channels.

Iran Daily isn't all that sympathetic either. Their current news story seems reasonably impartial:

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BEIRUT, Lebanon, July 12--Hezbollah fighters launched a raid into Israel and captured two Israeli soldiers Wednesday, triggering an Israeli assault with warplanes, gunboats and ground troops in southern Lebanon to hunt for the captives.
Israeli jets struck deep into southern Lebanon, blasting bridges and Hezbollah positions and killing two civilians, Lebanese security officials said, AP reported.
At least six Israeli soldiers were killed in the Hezbollah attack and Israeli response, the Lebanese officials said.
The soldiers’ capture opened up a second front for Israel, as it waged an offensive in the Gaza Strip aimed at freeing another Israeli soldier, Cpl. Gilad Shalit, seized by fighters linked to the Palestinian militant group Hamas on June 25.
Israel escalated its Gaza assault Wednesday, dropping a quarter-ton bomb on a home before dawn in an attempt to assassinate top Hamas fugitives. Instead, the blast killed nine members of a Palestinian family---including a 4-year-old boy.
Wednesday’s events threatened to complicated efforts to win Shalit’s release. The Shiite Lebanese Hezbollah said it had kidnapped the soldiers to help win the release of prisoners held in Israel. Hamas had made identical demands in seizing the Israeli soldier.
Hezbollah leader Seyyed Hassan Nasrallah said the capture of two Israeli soldiers was aimed at forcing the release of prisoners in Israel.
“What we did today...is the only feasible path to free detainees from Israeli jails,“ Nasrallah told a news conference in Beirut, saying Israeli attacks would not lead to the release of the captured soldiers, Reuters reported.
“We do not want escalation in the south (of Lebanon), we do not want to bring war to Lebanon,“ he said. “But if the enemy is thinking of escalation and that it wants Lebanon to pay a price then...we are ready and willing, more than the enemy expects.“
“Any military operation will not lead to returning the (Israeli) captives.
The only means is indirect negotiation and thus a swap,“ Nasrallah said.
A top Hamas leader said his movement did not coordinate with Hezbollah over the capture of the soldiers, but said it was ’natural’ for the two groups to work together in their demands for prisoner swaps with Israel.
Hamas-linked militants have demanded the release of at least some of the estimated 9,000 prisoners held by Israel in exchange for Shalit’s freedom.

But check out the opinion piece entitled "Perspective" :

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Getting at the Roots

By H. Jafari

Foreign ministers of Iraq’s neighboring countries met in Tehran at a sensitive juncture in the war-ravaged Arab country and a new wave of Zionist crimes against Palestinian Muslims.
A thorough examination of all that inspired during the two-day session is beyond the scope of this writing. However, one thing is certain and that is the common concern of all the participants that is how to help establish security and stability in Iraq. This has been one issue that has evaded Iraq’s friends and regional leaders after the tyrant in Baghdad, Saddam Hussein was toppled in 2003.
To return law and order to Iraq, the roots of ongoing tension and senseless crime in that country must first be analyzed. Here one key question must be answered: Who wants to see the oppressed nation mired in violence and anarchy?
The answer must be sought in two different phases. First, the closing years of the second millennium, and second the post-9/11.
Before the Soviet Union became history, the communists had identified Iraq within the framework of the Eastern bloc. In short, Baghdad was viewed as a catalyst for strengthening the political equations preferred by Moscow in the former global bipolar system.
At that time, the Kremlin used Iraq as a tool for the fulfillment of its demands. Not to mention that among western powers, including France openly endorsed the Baathist Party under Saddam Hussein in the hope of ensuring their interests.
When the Soviet Union disappeared, the global bipolar system also went with it. In 1991, the world witnessed moves by George Bush Sr. in the Persian Gulf War. In wake of the failure of reforms initiated by the last Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev in 1990, the Eastern bloc disintegrated within the framework of autonomous republics. These two incidents led to a situation wherein global political equations and subsequently the governing geopolitical equations guiding international relations came a full circle.
However, after Bill Clinton defeated Bush I in the 1992 presidential elections, Saddam saw the opportunity to rehabilitate himself in the so-called new global order.
It should not be doubted that the role of the Zionists in the 9/11 terrorist attacks in the US, despite systemic White House efforts to cover it up, is now a foregone conclusion.
Over the years, American neocons, in a rather different approach from Democrats and traditional republicans, have resorted to every trick in the book to promote Zionism and its goals in the Middle East and have worked hard on the Zionist conspiracy of domination ’from the Nile to the Euphrates’.
Iraq was invaded and occupied by the US and Britain with this specific goal. By dislodging Saddam’s tyranny did America really want to establish democracy and freedom in Iraq? The answer is obvious to all intelligent people across the globe.
In the post-Saddam era, Iraq could be a US pet only and only if it contributes to Israeli security and interests. It must be mentioned that by subjugating Iraq, Bush Jr., and his generals never had in mind the effective presence of all Iraqi ethnic groups in the power equations or the establishment of a strong government of national reconciliation in Baghdad.
Recent reports say Zionist agents are busy buying land in southeastern Turkey and Anatolia. It is clear that given the geographical proximity of the purchased areas, Tel Aviv hopes to annex them to territories under its ’influence’ in post-Saddam Iraq.
Observers note that if Iraq stands united and ethnic groups interact with wisdom and for the common cause under the leadership of figures like the revered Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the ’Nile to the Euphrates’ plot that has long been the covert desire of the evil US-Israel-UK axis ever since the 1948 occupation of Palestine, will never materialize.
One is bound to conclude that a stable and peaceful Iraq is indeed a nightmare for the US-led occupying forces and their Zionist patrons.
The ongoing savage Israeli attacks against defenseless civilians in Gaza and yesterday on southern Lebanon shows that the usurper state is desperate over the situation in Iraq. After all things are simply not going in the direction Tel Aviv and its bankrollers in Washington and London had initially planned or anticipated.
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s prudent speech at the meeting of
foreign ministers of Iraq’s neighbors among other things demonstrated the extent to which Tehran has studied and realized the root cause of the problems in Iraq. Without venturing into diplomatic jargon, Ahmadinejad said the main problem of the Islamic world is the existence of the Zionist pseudo state in the heart of the Islamic world. He appealed to all Muslim nations to use all at their disposal to pool their minds and address this issue.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[yoram 0]

well let us refresh your selective memory as well then!!! but i don't want to insult the memory of all those innocent victims, women children and elderly and men that have died in all those bombings!!! but they were potetial soldiers, i meant civilians potentially eventually soldiers of the oppressing army of occupation? aren't they Mr skyrad i know it all?

[billvon 2,380]

>OK, so you consider me a child.

Not unless you're one of the people killing other people because "they did it first!" If that's really what people are fighting over, then I hold little hope for any resolution of the issue (other than eternal war.) You can always find an example of how someone else "did it first"; We've been killing each other for millions of years.

[sundevil777 93]

Indeed, the op ed article concludes that Zionist involvement in the 9/11 attacks and the cover up by the White House is a forgone conclusion. Do we need any further evidence of their nature?

Charles Krauthammer (a regular on Brit Hume's show), writing in Time Magazine, reminds his readers of the origins of this current crisis, debunking the myth of the "cycle of violence":

What is so remarkable about the current wave of violence in Gaza is that the event at the origin of the "cycle" is not at all historical, but very contemporary. The event is not buried in the mists of history. It occurred less than one year ago. Before the eyes of the whole world, Israel left Gaza. Every Jew, every soldier, every military installation, every remnant of Israeli occupation was uprooted and taken away.

How do the Palestinians respond? What have they done with Gaza, the first Palestinian territory in history to be independent, something neither the Ottomans nor the British nor the Egyptians nor the Jordanians, all of whom ruled Palestinians before the Israelis, ever permitted? On the very day of Israel's final pullout, the Palestinians began firing rockets out of Gaza into Israeli towns on the other side of the border. And remember: those are attacks not on settlers but on civilians in Israel proper, the pre-1967 Israel that the international community recognizes as legitimately part of sovereign Israel, a member state of the U.N. A thousand rockets have fallen since.

For what possible reason? Before the withdrawal, attacks across the border could have been rationalized with the usual Palestinian mantra of occupation, settlements and so on. But what can one say after the withdrawal?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[livendive 8]

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What is so remarkable about the current wave of violence in Gaza is that the event at the origin of the "cycle" is not at all historical, but very contemporary. The event is not buried in the mists of history. It occurred less than one year ago. Before the eyes of the whole world, Israel left Gaza. Every Jew, every soldier, every military installation, every remnant of Israeli occupation was uprooted and taken away.

My leanings are in Israel's favor for exactly that reason. They made a concession and this is the thanks they get from the Palestinians.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[sundevil777 93]

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>OK, so you consider me a child.

Not unless you're one of the people killing other people because "they did it first!" If that's really what people are fighting over, then I hold little hope for any resolution of the issue (other than eternal war.) You can always find an example of how someone else "did it first"; We've been killing each other for millions of years.

The question was who started it. Do you consider both sides to be equally at fault in starting the conflict? Obviously I do not. If you ask who is at fault for continuing to feed the flames of the conflict, then both sides have done wrong.

The Arabs attacked immediately (as they promised) after the creation of Israel. If that isn't the clearest case of 'they did it first', then I don't know what is.

Personally, I don't find the term terrorism very useful. It is just another form of war by a group trying to achieve political objectives with violence (war), and should be treated as such, instead of pretending that it is just a type of criminal act such as an ordinary murder/assault.

The hope for resolution of the issue, as I've said before, is for a leader with the courage of Anwar Sadat. I never thought that Ariel Sharon was the right guy on the Israeli side to help the peace process, because of his prior history.

Myths and Facts

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[falxori 0]

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people killing other people because "they did it first!"

its not the "they did it first" part i'm worried about. its the "they want to keep doing it next".

but who started a cycle of violence is very important when you cast the blame. you cannot blame Israel for striking lebanon now without mentioning the unprovoked border crossing attack that came from within its borders.
and the same goes for gaza when there is no Israeli presence there and still rockets fly out of there.

more than 70% of israelis supported pulling out of gaza, hoping that maybe finally the PA will take their independance at hand and start to build a nation. the current PM was elected based on his plan to do the same in the west bank. we do not want to control the palestinians but when we pull out they come after us picking up fights (and there are always reasons for those who look for them). its very frustrating.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[billvon 2,380]

>but who started a cycle of violence is very important when you cast
>the blame.

Perhaps. But "casting blame" doesn't stop the fighting; indeed, it only increases it. If endless war is the goal, then blame can go a long way towards achieving it; there will always be plenty of blame.

>you cannot blame Israel for striking lebanon now without mentioning
> the unprovoked border crossing attack that came from within its
> borders.

And you can't mention the border crossing attack without mentioning the assassination of Rantisi by Israel. And you can't mention _that_ without mentioning the Palestinian suicide bombing in Erez. And you can't mention that without . . . .

You can go back as far as you like. There will always be plenty of blame to go around. It will take some very visionary leaders over there to start looking towards the future, instead of assigning blame from the past.

[falxori 0]

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I never thought that Ariel Sharon was the right guy on the Israeli side to help the peace process, because of his prior history

i have to disagree with you on that.
I think that because of his military reputation he was able to pull it off.
Sadat was the master mind behind the 73 war (which was briliant from a military point of view even though it was lost at the end) but later on (like Rabin for that matter) he knew when its time to make peace.
i think thats what defines a leader, the ability to know when its time to do something different.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[steveorino 7]

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Christianity and Islam are both religions of violent fervor. On the other hand, I don't know of any war or campaign ever fought in the name of Buddha.

Blues,
Dave

If you think all buddhist are peace loving you should read the history of Viet Nam.

steveOrino

[falxori 0]

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Perhaps. But "casting blame" doesn't stop the fighting

agreed. but it is my response when Israel is displayed as the aggressor.

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And you can't mention the border crossing attack without mentioning the assassination of Rantisi by Israel

If that's the best connection you could find, then its only proving my point that this attack from Lebanon by Hezbollah is not a response for anything.

but when you look for reasons, you'll find some

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It will take some very visionary leaders over there to start looking towards the future

agreed. but it takes two to tango. just imagine what would happen if the palestinians took matters into their hands in gaza and started to build their nation.
if things were peaceful there , there would have been a lot more support in the Israeli public for pulling out of the west bank too.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[SkyDekker 1,121]

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The Arabs started it.

Myths and Facts

The Arabs promised to destroy Israel if it was created, and they did indeed try, and fail, again and again.

Some will cry that it is unfair that the palestinians have such poor weapons. By that logic, the US should not have invaded Afghanistan because of their military superiority.

This link provides a great example of how the media has been biased against Israel...on the day the intafada started, immediately after Arafat rejected the peace offer that his own negotiators recommended to him:

http://www.honestreporting.com/...t_Started_it_All.asp

The honest reporting web site is full of such examples.

You are funny.

Your "proof" comes from a website called Jewish Virtual Library and the history of the other website linked clearly states the organization was formed to help Israel.

You think maybe the information brought forward by them might be slightly biased?

[billvon 2,380]

>but when you look for reasons, you'll find some

Which is my point.

>just imagine what would happen if the palestinians took matters into
>their hands in gaza and started to build their nation.

And just imagine if Israel left them completely alone to do so. Like you said, it takes two to tango.

(Note - I am NOT saying that Israel is horrible or that the Palestinians are angels. Shouldn't need to be mentioned, but based on some of the other replies here I figured I would make that clear.)

[falxori 0]

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And just imagine if Israel left them completely alone to do so

in Gaza, it did. in Lebanon it did. so it seems that wherever we pull back they come out looking for more.

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(Note - I am NOT saying that Israel is horrible or that the Palestinians are angels. Shouldn't need to be mentioned, but based on some of the other replies here I figured I would make that clear.)

Israel has done more than its share of mistakes including skipping a very good chance to make peace right after the 67 war.

I'm well aware of your views and even if I think you sometimes see things from the wrong angle, at least you get your facts right.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

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you mean like in Bombay, India. those guys there killed your people also?
or like in Madrid, Spain?
or may be in London, England?
don't you have something better to do? try to be more pragmatic mister, but then again may be you have plenty of brothers in which case i rest my case you indeed must defend them.....

I am having trying to understand most of your post. Are you referring to my brothers (by the way I only have one) as terrorists? If so that’s fine I will just add you to the ignorant racist lot that I don’t waist my energy on. If not Please explain what your point is?


You are from Israel so I am sure you see the stolen land you live on as your rightful land even if as early as 58 years ago neither you nor your parents lived there. But guess who did? I know reality hurts

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[sundevil777 93]

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Your "proof" comes from a website called Jewish Virtual Library and the history of the other website linked clearly states the organization was formed to help Israel.

You think maybe the information brought forward by them might be slightly biased?

Yes, of course they are biased. They don't pretend to be impartial, as does the NY Times, for instance.

If you can find flaws in their analysis of history, etc. then have at it. I've provided a few different websites that obviously support Israel. I haven't seen anyone provide a link to a Palestinian support group as a balance. Perhaps it is too embarrasing to show that such groups are believers in the 9/11 conspiracy bullshit.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am