rehmwa 2 #126 July 12, 2006 Quotethousands of dead americans? Thousands of dead "people" - from all over the world - were killed, don't forget. And since it was the WTC, it was an attack also on the world economy, not just America. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,827 #127 July 12, 2006 Quoteone reason the US prefers isreal over arab countries.... after 9/11 which group was dancing in the street celebrating thousands of dead americans? hm..... So how do you explain the clear preference from 1948 to 9/10/2001?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 98 #128 July 12, 2006 Your analogy is not at all valid. The actual history of the region is much different than you portray. Here is a good reference: myths and facts Please don't bother attacking this just because they don't pretend to be impartial. If you can find flaws in their analysis or portrayal of historical events, please explain.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 98 #129 July 12, 2006 QuoteSo how do you explain the clear preference from 1948 to 9/10/2001? I do not have so much trouble identifying the good guys. Do you really see the scales as nearly balanced, or even tipping away from the Israelis? If you can dispute the information in this link, please do so: myths and factsPeople are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #130 July 12, 2006 ***[So how do you explain the clear preference from 1948 to 9/10/2001?/quote] similar values, similar culture, similar alignment during the cold war years. same as the US and the UK. its not so complicated to understand why the US and Israel are good friends for so long, and it serves both sides. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #131 July 12, 2006 Quotemyths and facts Please don't bother attacking this just because they don't pretend to be impartial. If you can find flaws in their analysis or portrayal of historical events, please explain. Very flawed. Right in the second bullet about roots. 1st off, they conveniently go back only as far as they need to establish Jewish ties - which is 3700 years ago. When some of the Semitic tribes (that eventually became the Jews and Arabs) moved in around that time, they ran off the population that was previously there - the Cannanites. So the claim that the Jews settled the area is false on 2 counts; 1) somebody else was already there, and 2) the Semites were not Jews yet, they were still Arabs. BTW, the Semitic tribes that migrated to the Mediteranean shores were based in Meopotamia (Tigris & Euphrates area) at the time they split up and some of them ended up in what is now Israel. Why don't they take it one step farther back and lay claim to Iraq, or another step and lay claim to Saudi Arabia, which is where their real roots are. It's also where the other Semites they left behind now live. I noticed that nobody here mentions that both modern Arabs and modern Jews have as common ancestors the early Semitic tribes. They all migrated out of the Arabian Peninsula into other areas. That dirty little fact must be more than either party can handle. And probably why the Jews don't like to talk about their history prior to about 1500 BC. Also, the "International Community" that granted them a place to live was basically Britian and France, with behind the scenes backing from the US. Others went along, but not like they had a choice, or could do anything about it. As an aside, they were intentional and very careful not to specifically support an actual state. If you read the Balfour Declaration (it's just a short letter actually) it does not specifically support forming of a separate nation. As for the comment about it being theirs because God said so. Give me a break. That is just a propoganda style appeal to emotion, and a further indication of the sites bias. So yeah, they are not impartial (Who is? Is there any such think as purely altruistic behavior?), but they are also telling partial truths and outright falsehoods." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 98 #132 July 12, 2006 My globe from the early 1900's doesn't resemble the current national boundaries. The existing boundaries have mostly been decided as a result of war. I don't think the history of thousands of years ago is too impotant for the current discussion. The USA conquered much of its territory in relatively recent times, and is not about to give it back to native tribes or the Spanish/Mexicans, etc. But the end of WWI/Ottoman empire was important. A group was established by the league of nations to decide the partition. After WWII, again there was a lot of partitioning to do, some done by negotiation between just a few of the victorious leaders, and Israel was established by the UN. The end of wars usually results in a redrawing of boundaries. When not satisfied with the creation of Israel, the Arabs started other wars to change that. They lost every time, but want to get their way regardless. I say tough shit.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aftermid 0 #133 July 12, 2006 Quote***[So how do you explain the clear preference from 1948 to 9/10/2001?/quote] similar values, similar culture, similar alignment during the cold war years. same as the US and the UK. its not so complicated to understand why the US and Israel are good friends for so long, and it serves both sides. Israel gets an enormous amount of fiscal and military aide from the US. As well as access to the veto power that the US exercises any time a resolution in the UN Security Council condemns the Israelis’ treatment of Palestinians. How does it serve the US to be allied with Israel? Fighting the war on terror is hardly a valid answer as Palestinians have never attacked the US; if anything the United States’ unconditional support (i.e. support without debate or expectation) provides motivation to Terrorists that are hostile towards us. The argument that they are the only stable democracy in the Middle East doesn’t hold much water, as they are a religious state that an enormous part of the population has no rights based on their ethnicity/religion. I think the US should worry about protecting the welfare of our citizens. Protecting our oil supply should be one of the top priorities of our government. Our primary concern in the Middle East should be fostering an environment that promotes stable oil production and acquisition. I think there should be some debate about the United States’ position in the region and our unconditional support for Israel. There should be at least as much time to openly debate this issue as Congress spends debating steroids and gay marriage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #134 July 12, 2006 Quotethe Cannanites. So the claim that the Jews settled the area they did settle the area long before anyone else who is currently claiming historic links to it. next time a cannanite wants to come live in Israel, he will have the same historic link. the 3000 years claims are a response to the claim that jews don't belong in Israel and that the Palestinians are the right "owners" of the land. the only point is that Jews in fact have proven historic links to this land and it goes far beyond those of the palestinians. you can also go back in time and say the dinosours should be given a homeland here... Quotethe Semites were not Jews yet, they were still Arabs define "arabs" ? a nation is defined by its culture, religion, folklore etc. saying they were not jews but arabs because they used to live in what is called today "arabia" is absurd. once Islam took over these semite tribes basically became todays arab world. QuoteAs for the comment about it being theirs because God said so. i will only claim this if God tells me that directly. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #135 July 12, 2006 QuoteFighting the war on terror is hardly a valid answer as Palestinians have never attacked the US; ooopppps http://www.zoa.org/2002/02/palestinian_ara.htm * 13 Americans have been murdered, and 38 wounded, since the current Palestinian Arab violence against Israel began in September 2000. * 25 Americans have been murdered, and 63 wounded, by Palestinian Arab terrorists since the signing of the Oslo accords in 1993. * At least 92 Americans have been murdered, and 106 wounded, by Palestinian Arab terrorists since 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #136 July 12, 2006 QuoteFighting the war on terror is hardly a valid answer I think its a very valid answer, especially because both countries share the same problem and share the same views on that method of operation. QuoteThe argument that they are the only stable democracy in the Middle East doesn’t hold much water, as they are a religious state that an enormous part of the population has no rights based on their ethnicity/religion. errr, thats simply not true. Isael is a democracy and not a "religious state". and its 20% minority of Israeli arabs are equal by law. the basic strategic reasons are that both countries share culture and values. there are differences and US support is far from unconditional. I don't know about you but if someone tries to hurt my friend i will try to help him even if i'm risking myself a bit. that's the meaning of friendship. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #137 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteFighting the war on terror is hardly a valid answer as Palestinians have never attacked the US; ooopppps http://www.zoa.org/2002/02/palestinian_ara.htm * 13 Americans have been murdered, and 38 wounded, since the current Palestinian Arab violence against Israel began in September 2000. * 25 Americans have been murdered, and 63 wounded, by Palestinian Arab terrorists since the signing of the Oslo accords in 1993. * At least 92 Americans have been murdered, and 106 wounded, by Palestinian Arab terrorists since 1968. Who are you? And how did you manage to hijack Jeanne's account, and use it to start posting logically? Its starting to freak me out. I am here thinking I fell asleep at work and dreamed of a parallel universe. ,If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aftermid 0 #138 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteFighting the war on terror is hardly a valid answer QuoteI think its a very valid answer, especially because both countries share the same problem and share the same views on that method of operation. How does our relationship with Israel help us fight OUR war on terror? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aftermid 0 #139 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteFighting the war on terror is hardly a valid answer as Palestinians have never attacked the US; ooopppps http://www.zoa.org/2002/02/palestinian_ara.htm * 13 Americans have been murdered, and 38 wounded, since the current Palestinian Arab violence against Israel began in September 2000. * 25 Americans have been murdered, and 63 wounded, by Palestinian Arab terrorists since the signing of the Oslo accords in 1993. * At least 92 Americans have been murdered, and 106 wounded, by Palestinian Arab terrorists since 1968. Where were these Americans killed? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 98 #140 July 12, 2006 QuoteWho are you? And how did you manage to hijack Jeanne's account, and use it to start posting logically? Its starting to freak me out. I am here thinking I fell asleep at work and dreamed of a parallel universe. I think Amazon's opinion on this matter reflects the fact that support for Israel as an ally is not a partisan issue. Most of the democrats and republicans in our government don't have a problem identifying the good and bad guys in this conflict. Islamofacism has clearly declared and is fighting a war with the rest of the non-muslim world. Some don't want to acknowledge that. I say that Israel and the rest of the free world should fight it like a real war, with the overwhelming use of violent force until the enemies leadership changes their ways. Anwar Sadat had the courage to truly seek peace. I hope others will follow his example. This is still a world largely governed by the use of violent force to achieve political objectives. We may wish it wasn't true, but I think it is.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aftermid 0 #141 July 12, 2006 QuoteYour analogy is not at all valid. The actual history of the region is much different than you portray. Here is a good reference: myths and facts Please don't bother attacking this just because they don't pretend to be impartial. If you can find flaws in their analysis or portrayal of historical events, please explain. Here are the flaws I found in thier analysis. The statements in bold are quoted from your link. The Jewish people base their claim to the Land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) the Jewish people settled and developed the land Prior to 1948 there were approx 10,000 Jews living in the land that is now Israel, while there were over 1,000,000 Arabs inhabiting the land. Sorry it’s hard to claim squatters rights after 2,000 years. 2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people I’m not disputing that. I’m merely raising the question (which you did not answer) what your reaction would be if similar sovereignty was granted to Native Americans and Africans in the current territory that encompasses the United States? 3) the territory was captured in defensive wars What defensive wars were these? The Six Day War? 4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham. It’s rather hard to argue with God. Maybe he changed his mind. Maybe somebody misinterpreted the revelation: When asked is the good good because the Gods says its good or do the Gods say its good because its good. Socrates responded that the Gods say its good because its good, because man can always misinterpret the revelation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #142 July 12, 2006 QuoteHow does our relationship with Israel help us fight OUR war on terror? first of all i don't think this is the right question. you are trying to find a tactic benefit such as military inteligence (which Israel shares with the US), proven methods learned by bitter experience and so on. but the answer to why the US and Israel are friends is not a tactical one (Israel has some tactical limitations due to the US influece too) but a strategic one. the US and Israel are friends for the same reasons you are friends with western europe and canada. sharing the same values, lifestyle and western culture. does US support of Israel put it at a risk of being attacked? sure, but as i said before, you don't run out on your friends because someone else doesn't like it. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #143 July 12, 2006 dude, your post is simply full of errors. QuotePrior to 1948 there were approx 10,000 Jews living in the land that is now Israel, while there were over 1,000,000 are you sure about the 10,000 part ? at 1947 there were about 400,000 jews and right after the formation of Israel they were joined by about several hundreds of thousands that were kicked out of all the arab countries. Quoteit’s hard to claim squatters rights after 2,000 years why? when does a claim becomes obselete? would you say the same about the palestinian claim if they waited several hundreds of years more? QuoteWhat defensive wars were these? The Six Day War? the 6 days war started with an israeli preemptive strike after the egyptian president nasser closed israel's way out by sea to the south and moved armored troops into the sinai desert against all agreements. QuoteIt’s rather hard to argue with God agreed. god's promise is irrelevant. Israel's link to this land which is as early as bibilcal times, is not. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #144 July 12, 2006 QuoteWho are you? And how did you manage to hijack Jeanne's account, and use it to start posting logically? Its starting to freak me out. I am here thinking I fell asleep at work and dreamed of a parallel universe. Kinda blows the shit out of some peoples perceptions dont it now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #145 July 12, 2006 QuoteKinda blows the shit out of some peoples perceptions dont it now. Fun, isn't it? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #146 July 13, 2006 )Quote the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people I’m not disputing that. I’m merely raising the question (which you did not answer) what your reaction would be if similar sovereignty was granted to Native Americans and Africans in the current territory that encompasses the United States? Ever heard of the Navajo Nation. A soveriegn country within the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 98 #147 July 13, 2006 Quote2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people I’m not disputing that. I’m merely raising the question (which you did not answer) what your reaction would be if similar sovereignty was granted to Native Americans and Africans in the current territory that encompasses the United States? I wouldn't like it at all. No entity outside of the USA can do that because they have no authority to do so. If, however, the USA had lost a war (as Germany and the Ottoman empire had), then we certainly would be subject to the revision of boundaries. Lots of boundaries were revised after the war. Losing a war certainly does provide for the possibility of consequences. From an article by Max Singer: ...in the 400 years before it became available in 1922, Palestine had been a small part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. But in World War I the British and French defeated Germany and the Ottoman Empire and stripped them of their colonies. Thus the League of Nations had to decide what nations should become sovereign in Palestine and the rest of the vast lands lost by the Turks. The League awarded more than 90% of these lands to Arab states, with Britain and France as temporary trustees... Whether or not the League of Nations was wrong to decide that Palestine should become a Jewish homeland, the effect of that decision is that the hundreds of thousands of Jews who came to Palestine from the creation of the Mandate in 1922 until the birth of the State of Israel in 1948 came pursuant to the international law that existed at the time. They came not as colonials, and not to take land away from another people, but to fulfill the decision of the League of Nations that Jews should be encouraged to settle in Palestine. And they bought the land on which they settled. The Arabs who fought against the Jewish settlers and refugees may have thought of themselves as protecting their own country from invaders, but according to international law it wasn’t their country (and it never had been in the past) and they were fighting against the existing law. In fact there has never been any “Palestinian land” anywhere because there has never been a Palestinian country...People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
